Bombardier to sell 120 planes to NETJETS???

[gunfyter]

Nothing more Capitalist than a Union.

A Cartel of labor.

That is unless you believe Capitalists like Free markets and PRICE COMPETITION. :laugh:

 

[G4dude]

Nothing more Capitalist than a Union.

A Cartel of labor.

That is unless you believe Capitalists like Free markets and PRICE COMPETITION. :laugh:

I like free markets (and competition therein) because it things forces companies to behave better than if they would otherwise. Or risk losing their customers and best employees to another company. I consider unions a destructive coercive force rendered unnecessary by a fully developed free market. In my opinion, unions served a somewhat positive purpose in the early days of the industrial revolution, maybe, but not now. Nothing I would love better than a good old academic discussion about the virtues of the Free Market, hee hee. Cheers!

 

[gunfyter]

Capitalists don't like Free market PRICE COMPETITION... they like Cartels, monopolies, Price Setting, collusion etc..

And conspiracies to keep labor costs low .... like the ATA lobbying to block important safety regulations regarding Crew Rest an Duty, Fatigue.

You (and so can the 121 airlines) can thank the Netjets Pilots union (and specifically GIV Captain Tom G) for your Prospective Rest rules and its enforcement. So it wasn't just in the early days of industrialization that unions were positive and necessary. Air Carriers are trying to cut corners all the time. We MUST stop them!

And what could be more immoral than Training Contracts and PFT? ooops I know ... Pilot Salaries at the Regional airlines.

 

[gret]

Capitalists don't like Free market PRICE COMPETITION... they like Cartels, monopolies, Price Setting, collusion etc..

Definition of CAPITALISM

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

 

[Pervis]

G4, you had the luxury of the favored employee status, and from your perspective, I can see your point regarding the necessity or not of unions. This is not meant as a hit on you, but rather a simple insight from a different perspective.

When I started at EJA, SIC pay was 27k, and upgrade in 6 months brought me to a whopping 37k. At the time we were told EJI starting salary was 68-72k, and no one would disclose Capt pay. We were told it was negotiated individually, all within a certain range. As a 5 year PIC I was barely making 75k on the flex schedule.

Clearly a significant difference, and it continues today, in spite of the integration, due to the continued favored status right up till the integration with mass upgrades. That was our fault as a group for not considering that possibility and negotiating a better deal for all.

There are a lot of SICs senior to PICs in the big Gs, and over time the salary difference is in the hundreds of thousands. Every single pilot from the "A" side will have far lower earnings since date of hire and will never see parity. Only new hires post integration will see true parity. That's fine, as future agreements would have to show favored status to one group, the former "A" side, which the union will not promote. That's one big advantage of unions today-eliminating favoritism. Some say it also offers protections for those that should be terminated, but how is that different from a non-union shop where favorites of managers remain and should be teminated?

There are many other advantages you will learn of and come to appreciate. The recent loss of medical insurance provides a base 1000/month till age 65 compliments of the union, with more available at a reasonable cost to us. Work rules that take the threat of termination away when issues such as mx and fatigue crop up. Protections from loss of benefits, recall rights, and lots more.

I believe this union is unique as well. All of us realize the importance of providing the best product we can to our owners, and will not attempt to cripple the company as other unions have done. In protecting the pilots, we also protect our owners and the Netjets name. Our goals are the same as management's, although we seem more interested in achieving them than they are of late.

PS: Don't worry about the few on the other board. Discussions like this may result in some verbal harrassment from a very small minority, but you'll find the majority will back you up.

 

[gunfyter]

Definition of CAPITALISM

: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Whats that got to do with what Capitalists really do? I'll get m history book out later and link you all the Cartels and collusions and insider trading and price fixing rackets the biggest capitalists in the world.
.
Standard Oil, Goldman Sachs, Government Motors ... and the rest of the bail out Crowd. We don't have a free market... we have Fascism. We have corporations feeding at the public trough. If we FREE markets ... a lot of very large companies would have had their doors nailed shut over the last couple of years.
=================================================
What I do not see in your post is PRICE COMPETITION! (They HATE IT! Except for WalMart.)

Just google Standard Oil and IG Farben. They colluded to avoid price competition in oil and pharmaceuticals.

 

[gret]

Whats that got to do with what Capitalists really do? I'll get m history book out later and link you all the Cartels and collusions and insider trading and price fixing rackets the biggest capitalists in the world.
.
Standard Oil, Goldman Sachs, Government Motors ... and the rest of the bail out Crowd. We don't have a free market... we have Fascism. We have corporations feeding at the public trough. If we FREE markets ... a lot of very large companies would have had their doors nailed shut over the last couple of years.
=================================================
What I do not see in your post is PRICE COMPETITION! (They HATE IT! Except for WalMart.)

Just google Standard Oil and IG Farben. They colluded to avoid price competition in oil and pharmaceuticals.

..."and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"...

 

[gunfyter]

..."and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"...

Free market -- This simply means the government does not set prices.

Collusion, Cartels, Unions are all forces acting as part of the free market (as long as the force of government is not used to achieve these things). Producers and Consumers (rather than government) determine whether these prices and wages are sustainable. If not, the Cartel or union is broken.

Anti-trust legislation, Minimum wage laws... Rent Control are examples of government interference in a market. Taxes/ subsidies imposed to achieve a government desired goals ... These things make a market -- NOT Free.

Capitalists don't care whether the market is Free ... what they care about is profits ... If government increases profit ... they are all for it.

 

[G4dude]

..."and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"...

Oh, I am REALLY enjoying this discussion!!

 

[G4dude]

Free market -- This simply means the government does not set prices.

Collusion, Cartels, Unions are all forces acting as part of the free market (as long as the force of government is not used to achieve these things). Producers and Consumers (rather than government) determine whether these prices and wages are sustainable. If not, the Cartel or union is broken.

Anti-trust legislation, Minimum wage laws... Rent Control are examples of government interference in a market. Taxes/ subsidies imposed to achieve a government desired goals ... These things make a market -- NOT Free.

Capitalists don't care whether the market is Free ... what they care about is profits ... If government increases profit ... they are all for it.

My contention is that the free market makes companies behave better than they otherwise would, not because they are nice or moral, but because they want to maximize profit by increasing market share by charging a profitable price and giving satisfying service.

 

[G4dude]

G4, you had the luxury of the favored employee status, and from your perspective, I can see your point regarding the necessity or not of unions. This is not meant as a hit on you, but rather a simple insight from a different perspective.

When I started at EJA, SIC pay was 27k, and upgrade in 6 months brought me to a whopping 37k. At the time we were told EJI starting salary was 68-72k, and no one would disclose Capt pay. We were told it was negotiated individually, all within a certain range. As a 5 year PIC I was barely making 75k on the flex schedule.

Clearly a significant difference, and it continues today, in spite of the integration, due to the continued favored status right up till the integration with mass upgrades. That was our fault as a group for not considering that possibility and negotiating a better deal for all.

There are a lot of SICs senior to PICs in the big Gs, and over time the salary difference is in the hundreds of thousands. Every single pilot from the "A" side will have far lower earnings since date of hire and will never see parity. Only new hires post integration will see true parity. That's fine, as future agreements would have to show favored status to one group, the former "A" side, which the union will not promote. That's one big advantage of unions today-eliminating favoritism. Some say it also offers protections for those that should be terminated, but how is that different from a non-union shop where favorites of managers remain and should be teminated?

There are many other advantages you will learn of and come to appreciate. The recent loss of medical insurance provides a base 1000/month till age 65 compliments of the union, with more available at a reasonable cost to us. Work rules that take the threat of termination away when issues such as mx and fatigue crop up. Protections from loss of benefits, recall rights, and lots more.

I believe this union is unique as well. All of us realize the importance of providing the best product we can to our owners, and will not attempt to cripple the company as other unions have done. In protecting the pilots, we also protect our owners and the Netjets name. Our goals are the same as management's, although we seem more interested in achieving them than they are of late.

PS: Don't worry about the few on the other board. Discussions like this may result in some verbal harrassment from a very small minority, but you'll find the majority will back you up.

Very good post! I will give you this: an in-house union, consisting of intelligent members, are infinitely preferable to a third party union such as the Teamsters.

 

[G4dude]

Whats that got to do with what Capitalists really do? I'll get m history book out later and link you all the Cartels and collusions and insider trading and price fixing rackets the biggest capitalists in the world.
.
Standard Oil, Goldman Sachs, Government Motors ... and the rest of the bail out Crowd. We don't have a free market... we have Fascism. We have corporations feeding at the public trough. If we FREE markets ... a lot of very large companies would have had their doors nailed shut over the last couple of years.
=================================================
What I do not see in your post is PRICE COMPETITION! (They HATE IT! Except for WalMart.)

Just google Standard Oil and IG Farben. They colluded to avoid price competition in oil and pharmaceuticals.

Cartels, monopolies, and other colluding miscreants result in the following: higher prices for their product, increased profits, followed by new companies starting up to compete because of the artificially inflated prices caused by the monopoly. Followed by the effective collapse of the monopoly due to competition by the new start ups, which were enable by the aformentioned artificial prices created by the monopoly. Ironic, huh? The free market kills cartels and monopolies. Another amusing anecdote: the extremely high Delta pilot salaries of a few years ago gave ValuJet/Airtrans the opportunity to start up with vastly reduced, profitable fares. They never could have established a toehold in the Atlanta market without the Delta pilot union driving up Delta's operating costs. In my opinion.

 

[gunfyter]

My contention is that the free market makes companies behave better than they otherwise would, not because they are nice or moral, but because they want to maximize profit by increasing market share by charging a profitable price and giving satisfying service.

Like UNIONS! Maximizing my profits and work conditions and increasing market share with SCOPE protections!


.

 

[G4dude]

Like UNIONS! Maximizing my profits and work conditions and increasing market share with SCOPE protections!


.

Good point, but I submit that unions are coercive, while individuals negotiating for themselves depend on a voluntary exchange of value between employee and employer. Also, unions protect the least productive employees, which can be bad news in our business. People get hurt when we screw up. So does our company.

 

[jonjuan]

Good point, but I submit that unions are coercive, while individuals negotiating for themselves depend on a voluntary exchange of value between employee and employer. Also, unions protect the least productive employees, which can be bad news in our business. People get hurt when we screw up. So does our company.

And the company has to make up for relative inefficiencies by charging more for their product which in turn reduces demand. Harder to compete in the long term against competitive products which are subsidized.