Bloomberg: DAL buys 40 CRJ900s

[General Lee]

I'd think you guys as major airline pilots would be able to play this forward. You sign a great new contract that cuts the number of RJs but allows more larger RJs. Airline B comes along and uses your larger RJ as a basis and expands their numbers drastically. Airline C comes along and does the same thing. 6 years down the road Airline A comes back to the table and guess what? They'll be either expanding their numbers or giving in a to a slight increase in size and, voila, scope, while seemingly scaled back, erodes further. Keep patting yourselves on the back, keep telling yourself you held some imaginary line. The truth is you've done no better than those before you and you did exactly what everyone always does, took the immediate gain while neglecting the long term pain.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same, I've earned my experience on these very aircraft. But keep the sanctimonious sh!t to yourselves about how you're the best and you're helping the cause. You've done no better and most likely a little worse than those before you.

None of that has happened, scope has only gotten tighter. You can't see the forest through the trees. OVERALL RJ numbers needs to decrease, and mainline flying needs to INCREASE. That has happened with this agreement. A sweetheart deal was made with the 717s, that will place those planes ontop of current 76 seat routes. Those new 76 seaters and current 70 and 76 seaters will now fly 50 seat routes as they go out. That is a win win for everyone. The 50 seaters can't make money during high gas, so now those routes will have 70 or 76 seaters to try to make more profits, and 717s will take back old mainline routes, like DTW to IAH or DFW, that CR9s are doing now. More profits, more mainline flying. That equals a WIN, and SWA gets to pay for the 717 reconfigurations and mx checks. To top it off, after the sub-lease is over, DL now has the option to buy the 717s at then current market rates. Used MD90s now (DL gets 14 in 2013 btw) go for about $8 million each including the engines. What will the 717s go for in 10 years? That is called a screaming good deal, while paying 717 Captains at the 12 year rate $195 an hour by 2015 (when they all get to DL). And, that will be the smallest DL mainline plane by then, paying that great rate. Well done.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'd think you guys as major airline pilots would be able to play this forward. You sign a great new contract that cuts the number of RJs but allows more larger RJs. Airline B comes along and uses your larger RJ as a basis and expands their numbers drastically. Airline C comes along and does the same thing. 6 years down the road Airline A comes back to the table and guess what? They'll be either expanding their numbers or giving in a to a slight increase in size and, voila, scope, while seemingly scaled back, erodes further. Keep patting yourselves on the back, keep telling yourself you held some imaginary line. The truth is you've done no better than those before you and you did exactly what everyone always does, took the immediate gain while neglecting the long term pain.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have done the same, I've earned my experience on these very aircraft. But keep the sanctimonious sh!t to yourselves about how you're the best and you're helping the cause. You've done no better and most likely a little worse than those before you.

Wow.....talk about biting the hand that feeds ya.

I'll bet you weren't so vocal when you were in your first suit, standing at Commuter X with your logbooks in hand hoping to fly A JET.....Most civilians didn't have that chance, they got their time in props....WHY? because times have changed. The dinosaur days are over.....entry level is an RJ....we are closing the gap on how many RJ's are out there. Don't you dare disagree with me on that. RJ SEATS are down....even though there are more baby airliners in the air.

Now to say we are patting ourselves on the back, or thinking we are the best....it sounds like you are a little hurt that I don't give you the "cool guy nod" in the terminal and you have an inferiority complex. You are a pilot and so am I and we are working to fix the scope bleed we cut open in 1992.

AGAIN, we didn't win the war....just closed part of the battle. Was this too sanctimonious for ya?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Holy crap.....I actually agree with GL?? The Mayans WERE right!!

 

[DTW320]

It's even worse than that Bill.... I agree with both of you!

Watch that calendar....weird stuff going on....

 

[General Lee]

Holy crap.....I actually agree with GL?? The Mayans WERE right!!

Someday (before Dec 21st?) you'll figure out that I was correct ALL ALONG....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Someday (before Dec 21st?) you'll figure out that I was correct ALL ALONG....


Bye Bye---General Lee

The only correct thing you ever did, was to buy a blow up doll, so you wouldn't have to leave your moms basement...

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The only correct thing you ever did, was to buy a blow up doll, so you wouldn't have to leave your moms basement...

It didn't take long for the jackholes to chime in.....

 

[General Lee]

The only correct thing you ever did, was to buy a blow up doll, so you wouldn't have to leave your moms basement...

But wait, I went over to your Mom's basement.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[EL10]

First of all there some key items are being missed in this whole discussion about UAL TA verse the DAL scope. For one how many 76 seat jets did DAL have on property the day before the DAL TA was signed? Answer is 153 76 seat jets. The same amount allowed before UAL has to get a 100 seat jet. Difference here is the 120% cap on block hours, except UAL excludes any 767 domestic jets.

But the really scope improvement UAL will get that DAL does have is the day LCC and AMR get hitched and LCC leaves Star Alliance we will not have a domestic code share and DAL will still be living with Alaska. What's a bigger issue a 50seater or a 737-900 flying SEA to ATL?

Now you look at the fact that the way the language is written in the UAL deal it targets getting the C-series or the EMB 195. This is where the goal of getting them flown and crewed by UAL verse outsourcing creates a firewall. My opinion is we will not see more than 153 76 seaters at UAL as they will not want to give away the 100 seat jets. So who will have a bigger RJ fleet come next round of section 6?

 

[General Lee]

First of all there some key items are being missed in this whole discussion about UAL TA verse the DAL scope. For one how many 76 seat jets did DAL have on property the day before the DAL TA was signed? Answer is 153 76 seat jets. The same amount allowed before UAL has to get a 100 seat jet. Difference here is the 120% cap on block hours, except UAL excludes any 767 domestic jets.

But the really scope improvement UAL will get that DAL does have is the day LCC and AMR get hitched and LCC leaves Star Alliance we will not have a domestic code share and DAL will still be living with Alaska. What's a bigger issue a 50seater or a 737-900 flying SEA to ATL?

Now you look at the fact that the way the language is written in the UAL deal it targets getting the C-series or the EMB 195. This is where the goal of getting them flown and crewed by UAL verse outsourcing creates a firewall. My opinion is we will not see more than 153 76 seaters at UAL as they will not want to give away the 100 seat jets. So who will have a bigger RJ fleet come next round of section 6?

The AK codeshare was actually tightened in the DL Contract, and UAL already has plenty of "66" seaters which are really 70 seat CR7s and E170s. They already have those, along with tons of 50 seaters. How did the rates go for that C-Series and E195 anyway? The C-Series hasn't even flown yet. The 717 rates OTOH are fairly good. Regardless, it's up to your group to see if the deal is right for you. Shrinking total RJ numbers and adding 88 717s were good things for DL.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Data]

Wow.....talk about biting the hand that feeds ya.

I'll bet you weren't so vocal when you were in your first suit, standing at Commuter X with your logbooks in hand hoping to fly A JET.....Most civilians didn't have that chance, they got their time in props....WHY? because times have changed. The dinosaur days are over.....entry level is an RJ....we are closing the gap on how many RJ's are out there. Don't you dare disagree with me on that. RJ SEATS are down....even though there are more baby airliners in the air.

Now to say we are patting ourselves on the back, or thinking we are the best....it sounds like you are a little hurt that I don't give you the "cool guy nod" in the terminal and you have an inferiority complex. You are a pilot and so am I and we are working to fix the scope bleed we cut open in 1992.

AGAIN, we didn't win the war....just closed part of the battle. Was this too sanctimonious for ya?

Obviously you didn't read my whole post.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Obviously you didn't read my whole post.

Sure did......you pulled a drive by and I am ready to answer.

Care to change your tone?

 

[say again]

Is there a cap to the amount of 76-seaters that DCI carriers can fly?

 

[EL10]

The AK codeshare was actually tightened in the DL Contract, and UAL already has plenty of "66" seaters which are really 70 seat CR7s and E170s. They already have those, along with tons of 50 seaters. How did the rates go for that C-Series and E195 anyway? The C-Series hasn't even flown yet. The 717 rates OTOH are fairly good. Regardless, it's up to your group to see if the deal is right for you. Shrinking total RJ numbers and adding 88 717s were good things for DL.


Bye Bye---General Lee

AK tightened scope is not the same as being gone, should USair AMR happen. Yes UAL has plenty of 70 seaters, but so did DAL have prior to C2012. The number of hauls allowed is an exact copy of your scope. So again your cap is the same as the JCBA cap. Either UAL gets 100 seaters and allows up more 76 seaters like the ones DAL bought today, or we have less of those flying around. Pay rates of the EMB 195 are just like the rest of the rates, same percentage diff with DAL as all other. Not sure what you are getting at with that one. Also the additional 76 seaters can only occur if one of the these models is purchased the C1000, EMB 190 or EMB 195. Which each of those models they be lucky to get 100 seats in with F, Y plus and Y.

The whole point is do not try to justify that it was ok for DAL pilots to do the deal they did and now that the same deal UAL is somehow a whole new concept. Fact is again you already had 76 seaters before getting one 717, we will end up getting the same number before we get the new narrow body.

 

[General Lee]

AK tightened scope is not the same as being gone, should USair AMR happen. Yes UAL has plenty of 70 seaters, but so did DAL have prior to C2012. The number of hauls allowed is an exact copy of your scope. So again your cap is the same as the JCBA cap. Either UAL gets 100 seaters and allows up more 76 seaters like the ones DAL bought today, or we have less of those flying around. Pay rates of the EMB 195 are just like the rest of the rates, same percentage diff with DAL as all other. Not sure what you are getting at with that one. Also the additional 76 seaters can only occur if one of the these models is purchased the C1000, EMB 190 or EMB 195. Which each of those models they be lucky to get 100 seats in with F, Y plus and Y.

The whole point is do not try to justify that it was ok for DAL pilots to do the deal they did and now that the same deal UAL is somehow a whole new concept. Fact is again you already had 76 seaters before getting one 717, we will end up getting the same number before we get the new narrow body.

We have a hub in SEA (or crew base, not really a hub per se' in the contract, but two different fleets are based there---7ER and 330) because of the AK codeshare. We fill DL widebodies to Asia and Europe with the gates allotted. There are not enough gates left there to compete adequately against AK domestically, but for INTL feed DL does very well. How does USAir help you again? Not as much.

Your E195 rates are a lot less than the Airbus rates, and the Airbus were already hinted at possibly leaving your fleet. So, you go down A LOT if you dump your busses for cheaper E195s or C-Series. We are parking some 757s for 739s, but that is a $5 an hour difference, and also some 739s will replace some older 320s, so that is an increase in pay. But, yours could be a huge hit if that comes to fruition, and some people think it might.

Looking at your point about the 76 seaters, try not to fool yourself, the 70 seaters take up the SAME AMOUNT OF ROOM AT THE GATE as a 76 seater. Your Dash-8-400s do the same. It takes up a whole gate. Adding a few more seats really means adding a few more first class seats. Now, if you need to start over with zero 76 seaters all the way to 153 or whatever, well, that is YOUR fault for negotiating that. Your combined MECs saw value in other things, and try to lay blame on DL, when it is your decision. You have just as many 70 seaters (66 seaters), and probably more 50 seaters (or you will soon). It is your vote. Vote wisely. The majority at DL voted this way because they saw the 88 717s there, the better ratio, the tighter scope, the pay raise, and only 3 year duration. Let's hope you do better if you don't like the current one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nwaf16dude]

Is there a cap to the amount of 76-seaters that DCI carriers can fly?

it's a sliding cap based on the numbers of 717's brought into service. Assuming that all 88 717's are put into service, the end state will be up to 450 total DCI including 223 76 seat max, 102 51-70 seat max, and 125 50 seat max.

 

[say again]

it's a sliding cap based on the numbers of 717's brought into service. Assuming that all 88 717's are put into service, the end state will be up to 450 total DCI including 223 76 seat max, 102 51-70 seat max, and 125 50 seat max.

Thanks for the info! :beer:

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The majority at DL voted this way because they saw the 88 717s there, the better ratio, the tighter scope, the pay raise, and only 3 year duration. Let's hope you do better if you don't like the current one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Count me in as a guy who DIDNT vote yes....voted no for MANY MANY other reasons

 

[humveedriver]

Why does the article say DAL is buying 76 seat aircraft? I didn't think DAL had any wholly owned regionals anymore. Why isn't Skywest/ExpressJet buying the jets and doing the service. I can't pretend to understand how the new contracts and sub-service works. If DAL is buying the jets why not negotiate 76 seat rates for mainline?

 

[rtmcfi]

Why does the article say DAL is buying 76 seat aircraft? I didn't think DAL had any wholly owned regionals anymore. Why isn't Skywest/ExpressJet buying the jets and doing the service. I can't pretend to understand how the new contracts and sub-service works. If DAL is buying the jets why not negotiate 76 seat rates for mainline?

Delta can then go from regional to regional quickly when contracts are up. Now they can put out bids for 2 or 3 year contracts, every couple years. When company A loses the contract, company B can fill in quickly, with no need to go and find financing, or have the airplane manufacturer start producing airplanes. This gives Delta more leverage. Regionals will become nothing more than staffing services. The only bottleneck will be training. This will be "fixed" with the MPL.

This will drive regional payscales downward. This unfortunatly will put downward pressure on Mainline jobs as well. The fact of the matter is that Fed-ex and UPS and SWA don't set the bar for mainline wages. The regional low-baller of the day does.

Next time Deltas contract is up, negotiators will ask for larger and more RJs. Hopefully the Delta pilots will say no next time.