Bloomberg: DAL buys 40 CRJ900s

[Data]

Wow.....talk about biting the hand that feeds ya.

I'll bet you weren't so vocal when you were in your first suit, standing at Commuter X with your logbooks in hand hoping to fly A JET.....Most civilians didn't have that chance, they got their time in props....WHY? because times have changed. The dinosaur days are over.....entry level is an RJ....we are closing the gap on how many RJ's are out there. Don't you dare disagree with me on that. RJ SEATS are down....even though there are more baby airliners in the air.

Now to say we are patting ourselves on the back, or thinking we are the best....it sounds like you are a little hurt that I don't give you the "cool guy nod" in the terminal and you have an inferiority complex. You are a pilot and so am I and we are working to fix the scope bleed we cut open in 1992.

AGAIN, we didn't win the war....just closed part of the battle. Was this too sanctimonious for ya?

Obviously you didn't read my whole post.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Obviously you didn't read my whole post.

Sure did......you pulled a drive by and I am ready to answer.

Care to change your tone?

 

[say again]

Is there a cap to the amount of 76-seaters that DCI carriers can fly?

 

[EL10]

The AK codeshare was actually tightened in the DL Contract, and UAL already has plenty of "66" seaters which are really 70 seat CR7s and E170s. They already have those, along with tons of 50 seaters. How did the rates go for that C-Series and E195 anyway? The C-Series hasn't even flown yet. The 717 rates OTOH are fairly good. Regardless, it's up to your group to see if the deal is right for you. Shrinking total RJ numbers and adding 88 717s were good things for DL.


Bye Bye---General Lee

AK tightened scope is not the same as being gone, should USair AMR happen. Yes UAL has plenty of 70 seaters, but so did DAL have prior to C2012. The number of hauls allowed is an exact copy of your scope. So again your cap is the same as the JCBA cap. Either UAL gets 100 seaters and allows up more 76 seaters like the ones DAL bought today, or we have less of those flying around. Pay rates of the EMB 195 are just like the rest of the rates, same percentage diff with DAL as all other. Not sure what you are getting at with that one. Also the additional 76 seaters can only occur if one of the these models is purchased the C1000, EMB 190 or EMB 195. Which each of those models they be lucky to get 100 seats in with F, Y plus and Y.

The whole point is do not try to justify that it was ok for DAL pilots to do the deal they did and now that the same deal UAL is somehow a whole new concept. Fact is again you already had 76 seaters before getting one 717, we will end up getting the same number before we get the new narrow body.

 

[General Lee]

AK tightened scope is not the same as being gone, should USair AMR happen. Yes UAL has plenty of 70 seaters, but so did DAL have prior to C2012. The number of hauls allowed is an exact copy of your scope. So again your cap is the same as the JCBA cap. Either UAL gets 100 seaters and allows up more 76 seaters like the ones DAL bought today, or we have less of those flying around. Pay rates of the EMB 195 are just like the rest of the rates, same percentage diff with DAL as all other. Not sure what you are getting at with that one. Also the additional 76 seaters can only occur if one of the these models is purchased the C1000, EMB 190 or EMB 195. Which each of those models they be lucky to get 100 seats in with F, Y plus and Y.

The whole point is do not try to justify that it was ok for DAL pilots to do the deal they did and now that the same deal UAL is somehow a whole new concept. Fact is again you already had 76 seaters before getting one 717, we will end up getting the same number before we get the new narrow body.

We have a hub in SEA (or crew base, not really a hub per se' in the contract, but two different fleets are based there---7ER and 330) because of the AK codeshare. We fill DL widebodies to Asia and Europe with the gates allotted. There are not enough gates left there to compete adequately against AK domestically, but for INTL feed DL does very well. How does USAir help you again? Not as much.

Your E195 rates are a lot less than the Airbus rates, and the Airbus were already hinted at possibly leaving your fleet. So, you go down A LOT if you dump your busses for cheaper E195s or C-Series. We are parking some 757s for 739s, but that is a $5 an hour difference, and also some 739s will replace some older 320s, so that is an increase in pay. But, yours could be a huge hit if that comes to fruition, and some people think it might.

Looking at your point about the 76 seaters, try not to fool yourself, the 70 seaters take up the SAME AMOUNT OF ROOM AT THE GATE as a 76 seater. Your Dash-8-400s do the same. It takes up a whole gate. Adding a few more seats really means adding a few more first class seats. Now, if you need to start over with zero 76 seaters all the way to 153 or whatever, well, that is YOUR fault for negotiating that. Your combined MECs saw value in other things, and try to lay blame on DL, when it is your decision. You have just as many 70 seaters (66 seaters), and probably more 50 seaters (or you will soon). It is your vote. Vote wisely. The majority at DL voted this way because they saw the 88 717s there, the better ratio, the tighter scope, the pay raise, and only 3 year duration. Let's hope you do better if you don't like the current one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nwaf16dude]

Is there a cap to the amount of 76-seaters that DCI carriers can fly?

it's a sliding cap based on the numbers of 717's brought into service. Assuming that all 88 717's are put into service, the end state will be up to 450 total DCI including 223 76 seat max, 102 51-70 seat max, and 125 50 seat max.

 

[say again]

it's a sliding cap based on the numbers of 717's brought into service. Assuming that all 88 717's are put into service, the end state will be up to 450 total DCI including 223 76 seat max, 102 51-70 seat max, and 125 50 seat max.

Thanks for the info! :beer:

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The majority at DL voted this way because they saw the 88 717s there, the better ratio, the tighter scope, the pay raise, and only 3 year duration. Let's hope you do better if you don't like the current one.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Count me in as a guy who DIDNT vote yes....voted no for MANY MANY other reasons

 

[humveedriver]

Why does the article say DAL is buying 76 seat aircraft? I didn't think DAL had any wholly owned regionals anymore. Why isn't Skywest/ExpressJet buying the jets and doing the service. I can't pretend to understand how the new contracts and sub-service works. If DAL is buying the jets why not negotiate 76 seat rates for mainline?

 

[rtmcfi]

Why does the article say DAL is buying 76 seat aircraft? I didn't think DAL had any wholly owned regionals anymore. Why isn't Skywest/ExpressJet buying the jets and doing the service. I can't pretend to understand how the new contracts and sub-service works. If DAL is buying the jets why not negotiate 76 seat rates for mainline?

Delta can then go from regional to regional quickly when contracts are up. Now they can put out bids for 2 or 3 year contracts, every couple years. When company A loses the contract, company B can fill in quickly, with no need to go and find financing, or have the airplane manufacturer start producing airplanes. This gives Delta more leverage. Regionals will become nothing more than staffing services. The only bottleneck will be training. This will be "fixed" with the MPL.

This will drive regional payscales downward. This unfortunatly will put downward pressure on Mainline jobs as well. The fact of the matter is that Fed-ex and UPS and SWA don't set the bar for mainline wages. The regional low-baller of the day does.

Next time Deltas contract is up, negotiators will ask for larger and more RJs. Hopefully the Delta pilots will say no next time.

 

[redflyer65]

They typically do buy them, then sub-lease them out to the DCI carriers. Very rarely do the DCI carriers own any planes.

So bottom line for big CRJ's is 325 planes that can carry 70+ people. Wow.

The DC9-10 carried 76 px at mainline rates. Very sad indeed.

DALPA had Delta over a barrel with the need to re-engine hundreds of CRJ200's. Then they blinked. Bought off on larger RJ's for more pay. History repeating itself.

 

[redflyer65]

Next time Deltas contract is up, negotiators will ask for larger and more RJs. Hopefully the Delta pilots will say no next time.

You've got that right. Delta will come hat-in-hand saying the 76 seater are not economical anymore and they need 100 seaters to make it work. Plus the promise of decreasing the TOTAL number of RJ's. More pay for Delta pilots, rinse and repeat.

They will not say NO next time, just like C2012. Just watch what happens next time. And the General will initially say it's a bad deal, but will change his tune when he sees the new payscale.

 

[xjhawk]

what Delta pilots should have gotten in their contract was..

"if Delta is involved in any way in buying or financing aircraft, those aircraft have to be flown by Delta pilots."

Yes, this would have killed my job at my regional but would have put jobs at mainline where they belong. But I will have to say-i guess any recapture of mainline jobs is a good start.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

"if Delta is involved in any way in buying or financing aircraft, those aircraft have to be flown by Delta pilots."

I agree, I never really thought of Delta buying the airplanes then subcontracting to the subcontractors. Smart business move.

On the CRJ-900 payscale at Delta, my thought/opinion is... If one of the subcontractors goes on strike, or threatens to strike, Delta can train their pilots to fly the CRJ-900 quickly and not have to negotiate a new contract to get the payscale voted on.

 

[HA25]

this might help btw...

http://www.audriesaircraftanalysis.com/2012/12/01/delta-airlines-pilot-scope/