Blackwater aviation.....why not use military pilots

[T-prop]

How much training did the Blackwater guys get? Is it simply hiring qualified CASA and Metro pilots and shipping them out?

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

The report highlights some of their training. They have formal training in the states and they receive OE similar to the airlines when they arrive at their assignments.

They are not hiring them, pointing at a CASA after they arrive in Afghanistan and saying "you fly now!!"

It's not "Air America" the movie. Not saying that you won't hear some interesting stories from one of those pilots...

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They do, however, have very unique missions that are a blend of bush-flying, freight-flying, and "spec-ops" flying that requires enormous skill, experience, training, and professionalism.

Most are former military pilots, some were former military pilots that are/were on furlough from the airlines.

 

[CitationLover]

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

The report highlights some of their training. They have formal training in the states and they receive OE similar to the airlines when they arrive at their assignments.

They are not hiring them, pointing at a CASA after they arrive in Afghanistan and saying "you fly now!!"

Yes I know what the paperwork says they were trained on, but this is REALITY. We have 100 hour consolidation over here because the government realizes it takes awhile to fit in and get the big picture, these guys were in a war zone.

The report details this.

According to the director of operations, the captain and the first officer were not provided training in mountain flying because the training was not a requirement under Part 135, and each had “extensive” mountain-flying backgrounds.

Sounds like a typical DO. Hey we weren't required to do that and look at their past history anyways. Because god knows Alaskan mountain flying is the same as Afghani mountain flying. Oh and if you get lost in Alaska, there's at least ATC, some navaids, etc to provide some assistance and no one on the ground trying to shoot at you.

According to the program site manager, there was no formal Afghanistan theater-orientation program for the pilots. The company’s standard practice was to pair new captains with another captain or a theater-experienced first officer for one or two missions; new first officers were paired with theater-experienced captains. The program site manager stated the accident captain and first officer were paired for mission-planning reasons because they were the only CASA 212 crew on site who could also fly Presidential Airways’ SA-227 airplane.

A couple legs of OE and turned loose in a war zone. That's cool. Sounds to me that standard practice was broken due to operational needs, again cheap.

So basically it is the bare minimums and then shipping them out.

 

[CitationLover]

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They aren't receiving the formal training that a military pilot would have received either.

And yes the history shows them to be extremely cheap (in the air and on the ground). Don't believe me, believe Scott Helvenston who paid with his life and wrote letters extensively documenting this.

 

[CitationLover]

They do, however, have very unique missions that are a blend of bush-flying, freight-flying, and "spec-ops" flying that requires enormous skill, experience, training, and professionalism.

The CASA 212 was an unpressurized.....

The cockpit was equipped with quick-donning oxygen masks for the captain and the first officer. The passenger oxygen masks and equipment were carried in a case and could be plugged into a console in the passenger area when their use was required.

The training program did include emphasis on pilot and passenger regulations specific to Part 135 operations, which included guidelines on pilot and passenger oxygen use. According to other Presidential Airways pilots interviewed about their own use of oxygen, one pilot stated he would use oxygen only occasionally during flights above 13,500 feet msl, and another pilot incorrectly stated the altitude requirements for oxygen use.

you were saying........

would you trust Jonathon Ornstein to provide training for pilots entering a war zone? 135 operators are even cheaper than he is.

 

[T-prop]

Yes I know what the paperwork says they were trained on, but this is REALITY. We have 100 hour consolidation over here because the government realizes it takes awhile to fit in and get the big picture, these guys were in a war zone.

You're right, it is a war zone, not a place to set up a flight school. Most companies do a similar form of "consolidation" over there.

 

[T-prop]

you were saying........

would you trust Jonathon Ornstein to provide training for pilots entering a war zone? 135 operators are even cheaper than he is.

Just like in the states, be careful of which contractor you choose work for.

 

[T-prop]

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They aren't receiving the formal training that a military pilot would have received either.

The majority are former military pilots at this particular company.

 

[Mud Eagle]

sorry i got one thing wrong as i was going from memory. they took off at twilight.

Last time I checked, "twilight" in Afghanistan was nowhere near 0753:28.

 

[avbug]

There are as many contractors in Iraq as there are mil personnel? Prove it.

Surely you aren't serious. Military vs. contractors is averaging nearly a 1:1 ratio for the most part.

Globaly, the military would be dead in the water without contractors who maintain the aircraft, build the aircraft, build the tanks, weapons, systems, satellites, and do the vast majority of functions from logistics to direct support...including real time intel during offensive actions, in theater. Contractors work at every level, and have been used for more than a century to reat effect. Contractors work at everything from heavy maintenance on combat aircraft to spraying drugs in Colombia to airborne reconaissance and observation missions to making lunch, carrying lunch, and EOD work. Many contractor roles are identical in nature to many military roles, in fact.

When the military moves, far more civillians and contractors are involved in any operation when you consider the big picture, than military personnel. You just don't hear about it. What's occuring in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Thats right! Military pilots are the best

Civilians take note.

 

[CitationLover]

...What's occuring in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different.

they have 10 times the number of contractors these days in the gulf than in the 1st gulf war. what dick cheney started and rumsfeld aggressively pursued have outsourced and bled the military dry.

 

[CitationLover]

double post

 

[T-prop]

Civilians take note.

When are ya gonna add F-16 to your profile Mr. Cuervo?

 

[414Flyer]

they have 10 times the number of contractors these days in the gulf than in the 1st gulf war. what dick cheney started and rumsfeld aggressively pursued have outsourced and bled the military dry.

You are comparing trying to rebuild Iraq, and to an war fighting the Iraqi armed forces. Thats not quite a valid comparison. Tell us about the occupation of Iraq in the first war in 91.

So if you are saying the military is being outsourced and privatized, are you saying that Blackwater, Presidental, ICI, etc are equivalent to military units, and part of offensive efforts against insurgents too?

 

[CitationLover]

You are comparing trying to rebuild Iraq, and to an war fighting the Iraqi armed forces. Thats not quite a valid comparison. Tell us about the occupation of Iraq in the first war in 91.

So if you are saying the military is being outsourced and privatized, are you saying that Blackwater, Presidental, ICI, etc are equivalent to military units, and part of offensive efforts against insurgents too?

well we occupied part of saudi arabia for 4 months in 1990 as a precursor to the war with 5 times the numbers we see in iraq today yet with 1/10th the number of contractors. do you magically see the contractors disappearing once the iraq occupation ends? why is blackwater "assisting" the coast guard during katrina in new orleans?

as to your second part, it isn't what I'm saying, it's what THEY ARE saying. Blackwater has always used the Feres Doctrine in EVERY defense strategy for their numerous lawsuits.

 

[414Flyer]

The US military was an occupational military force in Saudi? Gee, I seem to have forgotten where we fought the Saudis and took over part of their country.

You neglected to mention that the contractor number includes Iraqis working for us there.

Nor was there an occupational and rebuilding effort for Iraq after GW1. Construction workers, linguists, food services, and bureaucrats do not have to be military, nor should they be.

Your whole argument was that there are 100,000 people in Iraq doing military jobs, and that you bring up Blackwater and Dyncorp.

Yet those two companies are about 2-3 percent of the contractors there. So much for that massive contractor force doing military ops.

 

[CitationLover]

The US military was an occupational military force in Saudi? Gee, I seem to have forgotten where we fought the Saudis and took over part of their country.

You neglected to mention that the contractor number includes Iraqis working for us there.

Nor was there an occupational and rebuilding effort for Iraq after GW1. Construction workers, linguists, food services, and bureaucrats do not have to be military, nor should they be.

Your whole argument was that there are 100,000 people in Iraq doing military jobs, and that you bring up Blackwater and Dyncorp.

Yet those two companies are about 2-3 percent of the contractors there. So much for that massive contractor force doing military ops.

and this is different from the us military with its internal support structure? how many troops in iraq are dedicated to combat operations versus logistics and support?

i didn't NEGLECT anything, it's in the washington post article THAT I POSTED. are you high? it also includes those fine outstanding Chileans that Blackwater hired as mercs, they learned their "skills" torturing other Chileans under Pinochet.

do you deny the us military and its associated coalition occupied saudi land for 4 months leading up to the gulf war where logistically contractors and internal support were used to maintain them? that force dwarfed the current one in iraq and used 1/10th the number of contractors.

you must really like secretary rumsfeld. he did a heck of a job planning the "restructuring and rebuilding" in iraq. i guess his plan of borrowing the old central american death squad plan and sent in john negroponte to execute it failed. but hey when the numerous IG's are in the contractors pockets anything goes.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12596
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...,3649705.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

if you don't believe me, how about Gen. Powell (who I guess knows nothing on this subject) who stated "the active Army is about broken".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/17/AR2006121700494.html

will you trust hillary to allow her favorite businesses to come in and subcontract? keep your head in the sand. can we not call them contractors, but what they really are: mercenaries.

 

[3ds]

CL take your political rantings somewhere else. We get it -- you don't like GWB and can't wait for HRC.

The BW pilots are some of the most experienced pilots in the type of flying they do: mountainous terrain, low level, airdrop, dirt landings, underpowered equipment, and demanding customers. All in a threat environment. They do it so often that it becomes commonplace. And I bet most pilots can testify that when they fly similar routes over and over and over again, they too have made mistakes, albeit less costly than these guys. Overall, BW's record is pretty darn good considering the number sorties they fly. MAybe they're over there because they want to help out?

"ANALYSIS
The unpressurized airplane collided with mountainous terrain at an elevation of 14,650 feet msl in a box canyon about 80 nm west of the departure airport in daylight visual meteorological conditions. "
Get your facts straight next time you launch a diatribe. It'll help your credibility.
Great avatar USMCairwinger.

 

[CitationLover]

CL take your political rantings somewhere else. We get it -- you don't like GWB and can't wait for HRC.

The BW pilots are some of the most experienced pilots in the type of flying they do: mountainous terrain, low level, airdrop, dirt landings, underpowered equipment, and demanding customers. All in a threat environment. They do it so often that it becomes commonplace. And I bet most pilots can testify that when they fly similar routes over and over and over again, they too have made mistakes, albeit less costly than these guys. Overall, BW's record is pretty darn good considering the number sorties they fly. MAybe they're over there because they want to help out?

"ANALYSIS
The unpressurized airplane collided with mountainous terrain at an elevation of 14,650 feet msl in a box canyon about 80 nm west of the departure airport in daylight visual meteorological conditions. "
Get your facts straight next time you launch a diatribe. It'll help your credibility.
Great avatar USMCairwinger.

i admit my misspeak, but you still don't address the original question.

my facts are straight, Blackwater has manipulated itself and insulated itself by hiring former IG's and Cofer Black. the point about Hillary was not about me voting for her (far from it), but rather will you trust her private contractors she likes to fly for the military as the precedent is set. i guess you think Colin Powell is wrong too.

and get it straight. they are over their to MAKE MONEY, not some patriotic duty. why would they hire Chileans if it is patriotic. it appears to me the military folks on this board are making the same mistake major airlines made with regard to scope, simply turning a blind eye until it is too late.

 

[Ill Mitch]

i admit my misspeak, but you still don't address the original question.

my facts are straight, Blackwater has manipulated itself and insulated itself by hiring former IG's and Cofer Black. the point about Hillary was not about me voting for her (far from it), but rather will you trust her private contractors she likes to fly for the military as the precedent is set. i guess you think Colin Powell is wrong too.

and get it straight. they are over their to MAKE MONEY, not some patriotic duty. why would they hire Chileans if it is patriotic. it appears to me the military folks on this board are making the same mistake major airlines made with regard to scope, simply turning a blind eye until it is too late.

And this wrong? Whether private company or military, it is all still a business with budgets and politics.
Mercenaries have been in use since 12BC or thereabouts. It will never change.

Why can't the military do the jobs you speak of? Because, bottom line, it is cheaper to use PMC's (or whatever you want to call them). For every combat soldier, there are dozens of other military personel in the role of support. Mercs are much more efficient...plus, they WANT to be over there.