Blackwater aviation.....why not use military pilots

[JohnnyP]

......

but hey fly the stars and bars and listen to boortz who called delta pilots idiots.

What does that have to do with anything?

Everyone knows boortz is the priest of the church of the painful truth!!!!!

What can I say, he's entertaining....

 

[CitationLover]

What does that have to do with anything?

Everyone knows boortz is the priest of the church of the painful truth!!!!!

What can I say, he's entertaining....

i actually enjoyed boortz until he made the comments regarding delta's pilots during the bankruptcy.

 

[CitationLover]

1. Its ironic that you complain about this adminstration cheapening the military, then you bring up that crash in Bosnia, when private sector business execs were on that plane. That that "killed" Ron Brown?

the point was to show the military, in charge of that flight, can screw up too. the original point of this thread was about AWS, Blackwater's aviation division.

2. The military has not been privatized. Not all of those contractor jobs are combatant jobs , some are state department contracts to support them.

the entire military is privatized. sure they are not in a combat role, but they are viewed by the enemy as combat soldiers and targeted as such. the ambush in fallujah those 4 poor people where placed in an unsafe situation and targeted as soldiers all in the name of guarding kitchen supplies. but don't take my word for it, take Scott Helvenston's words about his employer.

3. There are as many contractors in Iraq as there are mil personnel? Prove it.

Are you really that naive?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/04/AR2006120401311.html
http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/2005/contractor_deaths.html

Even the one doing the contracting has NO IDEA how large it has gotten.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=34125&sid=6

What the hell does Blackwater have to do in Katrina and be in New Orleans? Have we contracted that out too?

4. So we are not spending enough money now? I thought the big gripe was that we were spending too much money. Not everybody over there needs to be in the military, nor did we occupy Iraq after the first Gulf War, so that is a silly comparison . We didnt bring down Saddam using contractors either.

You didn't hear me griping about that. This country has ALWAYS been quick to demobilize. Dick Cheney started the rapid demobilization of the US military right after the 1st gulf war.

Bringing down Saddam was the easy part, it's the aftermath where the money was made for the contractors. Anyways, the original point regarding Blackwater is true. Private, for profit companies, cut corners in safety for the allmighty dollar (the airlines do this every day). A military, stretched extremely thin, does the same thing sadly. We have both in Iraq.

 

[T-prop]

I still think if you take your average US airlines operating program, training program, safety program, and add military pilots, you would have a safer program than what blackwater is running. I also know that this is flying in hostle areas, so I understand there is an added risk. accidents happen more in warzones than not. but this is inexcusable

Professionalism is up to the individual pilots/crews.

Look at the Pinnacle accident. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that no matter how professional the training can be, two yahoo's still ended up in the cockpit together.

The majority of those pilot contractors are former military that have had formal training on low altitude and mountainous terrain operations.

Most RJ pilots load their pants when you take their flight director away from them. An RJ pilot is not what you want in Afghanistan.

 

[CitationLover]

Professionalism is up to the individual pilots/crews.

Look at the Pinnacle accident. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that no matter how professional the training can be, two yahoo's still ended up in the cockpit together.

How much training did the Blackwater guys get? Is it simply hiring qualified CASA and Metro pilots and shipping them out?

 

[T-prop]

How much training did the Blackwater guys get? Is it simply hiring qualified CASA and Metro pilots and shipping them out?

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

The report highlights some of their training. They have formal training in the states and they receive OE similar to the airlines when they arrive at their assignments.

They are not hiring them, pointing at a CASA after they arrive in Afghanistan and saying "you fly now!!"

It's not "Air America" the movie. Not saying that you won't hear some interesting stories from one of those pilots...

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They do, however, have very unique missions that are a blend of bush-flying, freight-flying, and "spec-ops" flying that requires enormous skill, experience, training, and professionalism.

Most are former military pilots, some were former military pilots that are/were on furlough from the airlines.

 

[CitationLover]

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

The report highlights some of their training. They have formal training in the states and they receive OE similar to the airlines when they arrive at their assignments.

They are not hiring them, pointing at a CASA after they arrive in Afghanistan and saying "you fly now!!"

Yes I know what the paperwork says they were trained on, but this is REALITY. We have 100 hour consolidation over here because the government realizes it takes awhile to fit in and get the big picture, these guys were in a war zone.

The report details this.

According to the director of operations, the captain and the first officer were not provided training in mountain flying because the training was not a requirement under Part 135, and each had “extensive” mountain-flying backgrounds.

Sounds like a typical DO. Hey we weren't required to do that and look at their past history anyways. Because god knows Alaskan mountain flying is the same as Afghani mountain flying. Oh and if you get lost in Alaska, there's at least ATC, some navaids, etc to provide some assistance and no one on the ground trying to shoot at you.

According to the program site manager, there was no formal Afghanistan theater-orientation program for the pilots. The company’s standard practice was to pair new captains with another captain or a theater-experienced first officer for one or two missions; new first officers were paired with theater-experienced captains. The program site manager stated the accident captain and first officer were paired for mission-planning reasons because they were the only CASA 212 crew on site who could also fly Presidential Airways’ SA-227 airplane.

A couple legs of OE and turned loose in a war zone. That's cool. Sounds to me that standard practice was broken due to operational needs, again cheap.

So basically it is the bare minimums and then shipping them out.

 

[CitationLover]

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They aren't receiving the formal training that a military pilot would have received either.

And yes the history shows them to be extremely cheap (in the air and on the ground). Don't believe me, believe Scott Helvenston who paid with his life and wrote letters extensively documenting this.

 

[CitationLover]

They do, however, have very unique missions that are a blend of bush-flying, freight-flying, and "spec-ops" flying that requires enormous skill, experience, training, and professionalism.

The CASA 212 was an unpressurized.....

The cockpit was equipped with quick-donning oxygen masks for the captain and the first officer. The passenger oxygen masks and equipment were carried in a case and could be plugged into a console in the passenger area when their use was required.

The training program did include emphasis on pilot and passenger regulations specific to Part 135 operations, which included guidelines on pilot and passenger oxygen use. According to other Presidential Airways pilots interviewed about their own use of oxygen, one pilot stated he would use oxygen only occasionally during flights above 13,500 feet msl, and another pilot incorrectly stated the altitude requirements for oxygen use.

you were saying........

would you trust Jonathon Ornstein to provide training for pilots entering a war zone? 135 operators are even cheaper than he is.

 

[T-prop]

Yes I know what the paperwork says they were trained on, but this is REALITY. We have 100 hour consolidation over here because the government realizes it takes awhile to fit in and get the big picture, these guys were in a war zone.

You're right, it is a war zone, not a place to set up a flight school. Most companies do a similar form of "consolidation" over there.

 

[T-prop]

you were saying........

would you trust Jonathon Ornstein to provide training for pilots entering a war zone? 135 operators are even cheaper than he is.

Just like in the states, be careful of which contractor you choose work for.

 

[T-prop]

I spoke with one contractor and they will not fly with out TCAS over there. They aren't, "fly at any cost... get the mission done" cowboys.

They aren't receiving the formal training that a military pilot would have received either.

The majority are former military pilots at this particular company.

 

[Mud Eagle]

sorry i got one thing wrong as i was going from memory. they took off at twilight.

Last time I checked, "twilight" in Afghanistan was nowhere near 0753:28.

 

[avbug]

There are as many contractors in Iraq as there are mil personnel? Prove it.

Surely you aren't serious. Military vs. contractors is averaging nearly a 1:1 ratio for the most part.

Globaly, the military would be dead in the water without contractors who maintain the aircraft, build the aircraft, build the tanks, weapons, systems, satellites, and do the vast majority of functions from logistics to direct support...including real time intel during offensive actions, in theater. Contractors work at every level, and have been used for more than a century to reat effect. Contractors work at everything from heavy maintenance on combat aircraft to spraying drugs in Colombia to airborne reconaissance and observation missions to making lunch, carrying lunch, and EOD work. Many contractor roles are identical in nature to many military roles, in fact.

When the military moves, far more civillians and contractors are involved in any operation when you consider the big picture, than military personnel. You just don't hear about it. What's occuring in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Thats right! Military pilots are the best

Civilians take note.