Blackwater aviation.....why not use military pilots

[xjhawk]

I read an article about a blackwater charter plane which services the Military in Afganistan. The plane crashed due to pilot error and a lack of safety procedures. I would propose that they use military personal to fly those planes. They could use non-military pilots to take the deployment strain off the airforce. My idea is that they take servicemen and women who are already in the military who are already airline pilots. It would take a short course to train these highly qualified airline pilots (a couple months for a type rating and some operating experience) before their deployment. They could have airforce type deployments (rotating schedules to keep these pilots away from long high stress deployments) and rotate a number of pilots for a mission. Trading missions every couple years with another group.

I am a pilot at mesaba and know of a few other captains who are not in military aviation who would rather deploy as a pilot than say some other job. I am in the Infantry and like that field, but have always been too old for army or airforce flying, and would like to serve as a pilot in some way. Those of you who might be able to propose this, might think on its merits. Thats if it has any. I just know that some good service members died because of Blackwater aviation getting a contract to fly when it could have been accomplished by service members.

 

[avbug]

I read an article about a blackwater charter plane which services the Military in Afganistan. The plane crashed due to pilot error and a lack of safety procedures. I would propose that they use military personal to fly those planes.

Egads! You're onto something, there. After all, military pilots are rarely involved in mishaps, and never make mistakes.

You're aware that Blackwater is a private company, right?

Are you sober?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Not to mention that those pilots were ex Mil guy. But the guy is right, I have never seen a Mil guy make a mistake:erm:

Several friends of mine are there flying in Asskrakastan and the only accident that that has occurred that one of them was involved in was when he was being transported by Russian equipment that crashed on the landing. Accidents are rare for the contractor there.

 

[Mud Eagle]

It's mostly a matter of money and equipment. The Army and AF do not have the aircraft required to be able to run people and supplies out to the FOBs. It is cheaper to pay Blackwater to do it than it is to procure a new aircraft type and support/operate it.

 

[cr7driver]

Thats right! Military pilots are the best!!!! LOL!
We are all human....military or not! Having flown with both, I have'nt seen much difference between the two.

 

[pilotyip]

Did the same thing in WWII, ATC was a civilian organization doing a military mission. Non-combat flights to support combat operations. Run by the CEO of American Airlines. E. K. Gann wrote of this in his books.

 

[CitationLover]

actually Blackwater crashed a CASA 212, flown by civs who I believe were not ex-military, because they simply acted like any other cheap 135 operator: indirectly forced pilots to fly in questionable weather and circumstances with crude maps. the flight was Blackwater 61.

flying at night in the mountains the pilots simply got lost and crashed into a mountain.

don't you love how rumsfeld and cheney cheapened the military?

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

actually Blackwater crashed a CASA 212, flown by civs who I believe were not ex-military, because they simply acted like any other cheap 135 operator: indirectly forced pilots to fly in questionable weather and circumstances with crude maps. the flight was Blackwater 61.

flying at night in the mountains the pilots simply got lost and crashed into a mountain.

don't you love how rumsfeld and cheney cheapened the military?

Pretty much 100% of your information is incorrect, by the way.

Here is the link to the report (not sure where you got your info from).

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

Flying @ night?. Where'd you get that from?

Civilian flights aren't allowed @ night in Afghan (even though there was a push to get this lifted, not sure of the verdict as of a month ago'ish).

I have good insight on this as I have flown there in the same conditions/weather/airstrips, although for a different operator. Interesting try though.

Have you been there?

 

[CitationLover]

Pretty much 100% of your information is incorrect, by the way.

Here is the link to the report (not sure where you got your info from).

http://ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/aab0607.htm

Flying @ night?. Where'd you get that from?

Civilian flights aren't allowed @ night in Afghan (even though there was a push to get this lifted, not sure of the verdict as of a month ago'ish).

I have good insight on this as I have flown there in the same conditions/weather/airstrips, although for a different operator. Interesting try though.

Have you been there?

sorry i got one thing wrong as i was going from memory. they took off at twilight.

they got lost

At 0753:28, the captain stated, “we’ll just have to see where this leads.”

An unidentified passenger asked about the route of flight at 0802:25, and the mechanic stated, “I don’t know what we’re gunna see, we don’t normally go this route.”

At 0803:34, the captain stated, “okay it’s about time we’re gunna start climbin’ … we’re comin’ up to a box up here. … yeah I think this valley might peter out right up here.”

At 0815:47, the first officer stated that the ridgeline off to their left had a minimum elevation of approximately 14,000 feet msl. <--- note they were not using oxygen

, tried to turn around in a tight valley, stalled an airplane into a mountain.

as for weather, they were worried about weather:

At 0756:12, the captain stated, “well normally we’d have time to on a short day like this we’d have time to play a little bit do some explorin’ but with those winds comin’ up I want to [expletive] get there as fast as we can.”

in addition they had decided to "go" based on the weather information only at their origin and destination and as shown above, were concerned about sand storms, etc. coming into the area.

and the US Army Collateral Investigations Board found Blackwater at fault for the crash. the passenger's families (the us military personnel) are also suing Blackwater.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=206054

no try involved, simply cheapening the us military to for profit companies, like Blackwater and yours (conveniently Blackwater's newest companies are being set up offshore to avoid US law). it's not "cheaper" per se as with no oversight these companies simply siphon more and more from the pentagon.

but hey fly the stars and bars and listen to boortz who called delta pilots idiots.

 

[414Flyer]

There is lots of civilian flights in Afghanistan, there is no way for the military to do it all. A lot of contractor work that people are whining about, is actually companies doing State Department work, not doing military work.

You can find plenty of mil pilots who have crashed due to their own fault. I think your message was less about the crash, and more about taking a shot at certain politicians.

 

[CitationLover]

There is lots of civilian flights in Afghanistan, there is no way for the military to do it all. A lot of contractor work that people are whining about, is actually companies doing State Department work, not doing military work.

You can find plenty of mil pilots who have crashed due to their own fault. I think your message was less about the crash, and more about taking a shot at certain politicians.

first, which is it? contractors or part of the "total force", which is their convenient excuse in a lawsuit when they get sued for when they screw up.

second, yes the military screws up also. i can remember them killing Commerce Secretary Brown in Bosnia.

and sure there is a way for the military to do it all, it simply costs money. rumsfeld decided early on to privatize the military such that we now have a 1:1 ratio of "contractor" to military personnel in iraq and afghanistan from a much higher ratio in the original gulf war.

 

[414Flyer]

first, which is it? contractors or part of the "total force", which is their convenient excuse in a lawsuit when they get sued for when they screw up.

second, yes the military screws up also. i can remember them killing Commerce Secretary Brown in Bosnia.

and sure there is a way for the military to do it all, it simply costs money. rumsfeld decided early on to privatize the military such that we now have a 1:1 ratio of "contractor" to military personnel in iraq and afghanistan from a much higher ratio in the original gulf war.

1. Its ironic that you complain about this adminstration cheapening the military, then you bring up that crash in Bosnia, when private sector business execs were on that plane. That that "killed" Ron Brown?

2. The military has not been privatized. Not all of those contractor jobs are combatant jobs , some are state department contracts to support them.

3. There are as many contractors in Iraq as there are mil personnel? Prove it.

4. So we are not spending enough money now? I thought the big gripe was that we were spending too much money. Not everybody over there needs to be in the military, nor did we occupy Iraq after the first Gulf War, so that is a silly comparison . We didnt bring down Saddam using contractors either.

 

[xjhawk]

it is the black water 61 flight that I was thinking about when I began this thread. As for the comments that i am not sober, or that military pilots are better than non military pilots. Well, I am sober and put some thought in this. I do not mean for the airforce to procure more aircraft, train a military pilot for two years and take forever to get a program set up to get it running. I was stating, that if black water can apparently train a pilot in less than a month, and send him to afganistan, why cannot the defense department? Using, I say again, Military personal who are qualified airline pilots......like at mesaba, where I know pleanty of guard and reserve members who are not military pilots. Yes, I am in the military (Infantry), no I do not concider myself a military pilot. for the record, I do know a lot of good pilots, whether their background was military or civilian is not revelant. For the record, the only military planes I fly in are the ones I would jump out of with my parachute (thats a joke by the way, total respect for those transport guys.) As for the ones who are very defensive about blackwater. I believe blackwater is at the heart of the problem with reguards to blackwater 61's crash. seems to me, there was a lack of professionalism with that crew, which comes from the training program, which folks, is the companies problem! The guy who said blackwater is cheapening our military has it right. Johnnyp, guess what, just because you have been there, does not mean you know it all, we can read the report, and see there is a lack of safety and professionalism in the blackwater ops in regards to flying. I have been to a lot of places, and some of the guys who where there with me were complete idiots and did not know their jobs from a hole in the ground. So you were there? you might know your stuff, but you are sure defensive, so that must mean you are one of those who do know or is it???.....I will leave the rest for you to figure out. I would think guys like me, who are good infantry soldiers, but better pilots who be better utilized by our military to fly precious cargo like our servicemen and women.

 

[xjhawk]

PROBABLE CAUSE
The captain’s inappropriate decision to fly a nonstandard route and his failure to maintain adequate terrain clearance, which resulted in the inflight collision with mountainous terrain. Factors were the operator’s failure to require its flight crews to file and to fly a defined route of flight, the operator’s failure to ensure that the flight crews adhered to company policies and FAA and DoD Federal safety regulations, and the lack of in-country oversight by the FAA and the DoD of the operator


I was not there, but this sums it up rather neatly. make your own judgement. I still think if you take your average US airlines operating program, training program, safety program, and add military pilots, you would have a safer program than what blackwater is running. I also know that this is flying in hostle areas, so I understand there is an added risk. accidents happen more in warzones than not. but this is inexcusable

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

Johnnyp, guess what, just because you have been there, does not mean you know it all, we can read the report, and see there is a lack of safety and professionalism in the blackwater ops in regards to flying. I have been to a lot of places, and some of the guys who where there with me were complete idiots and did not know their jobs from a hole in the ground. So you were there? you might know your stuff, but you are sure defensive, so that must mean you are one of those who do know or is it???....

My post was not intended to be an "I know it all" type of post, even if it came across like that. You can see by my previous post's that I usually don't get into arguments of this sort. But once and a while something comes across the boards to where I feel I can put in my two cents because I have a valid opinion with experiences to back it up.

Did the crew make some pretty poor choices which cost people their lives----you bet.

You can't let the actions of two of BW's crew define the safety culture of the whole operation they run. It just doesn't work like that, you and I both know that.

Can the military operate like they do without the use of civilian contractors?----From what I have seen with my own eyes, I would say absolutely not.


Weather that is a good or bad situation, the current situation is what it is, like it or not. If you pulled out the KBR's, the BW's, the whoever, you'd be in a world of hurt as far as resources, as the military doesn't have something to just replace it with. But you could start a whole new thread on just that alone.

Just the two cent's from one individuals eyes, thats all.

 

[JohnnyP]

......

but hey fly the stars and bars and listen to boortz who called delta pilots idiots.

What does that have to do with anything?

Everyone knows boortz is the priest of the church of the painful truth!!!!!

What can I say, he's entertaining....

 

[CitationLover]

What does that have to do with anything?

Everyone knows boortz is the priest of the church of the painful truth!!!!!

What can I say, he's entertaining....

i actually enjoyed boortz until he made the comments regarding delta's pilots during the bankruptcy.

 

[CitationLover]

1. Its ironic that you complain about this adminstration cheapening the military, then you bring up that crash in Bosnia, when private sector business execs were on that plane. That that "killed" Ron Brown?

the point was to show the military, in charge of that flight, can screw up too. the original point of this thread was about AWS, Blackwater's aviation division.

2. The military has not been privatized. Not all of those contractor jobs are combatant jobs , some are state department contracts to support them.

the entire military is privatized. sure they are not in a combat role, but they are viewed by the enemy as combat soldiers and targeted as such. the ambush in fallujah those 4 poor people where placed in an unsafe situation and targeted as soldiers all in the name of guarding kitchen supplies. but don't take my word for it, take Scott Helvenston's words about his employer.

3. There are as many contractors in Iraq as there are mil personnel? Prove it.

Are you really that naive?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/04/AR2006120401311.html
http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/2005/contractor_deaths.html

Even the one doing the contracting has NO IDEA how large it has gotten.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=34125&sid=6

What the hell does Blackwater have to do in Katrina and be in New Orleans? Have we contracted that out too?

4. So we are not spending enough money now? I thought the big gripe was that we were spending too much money. Not everybody over there needs to be in the military, nor did we occupy Iraq after the first Gulf War, so that is a silly comparison . We didnt bring down Saddam using contractors either.

You didn't hear me griping about that. This country has ALWAYS been quick to demobilize. Dick Cheney started the rapid demobilization of the US military right after the 1st gulf war.

Bringing down Saddam was the easy part, it's the aftermath where the money was made for the contractors. Anyways, the original point regarding Blackwater is true. Private, for profit companies, cut corners in safety for the allmighty dollar (the airlines do this every day). A military, stretched extremely thin, does the same thing sadly. We have both in Iraq.

 

[T-prop]

I still think if you take your average US airlines operating program, training program, safety program, and add military pilots, you would have a safer program than what blackwater is running. I also know that this is flying in hostle areas, so I understand there is an added risk. accidents happen more in warzones than not. but this is inexcusable

Professionalism is up to the individual pilots/crews.

Look at the Pinnacle accident. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that no matter how professional the training can be, two yahoo's still ended up in the cockpit together.

The majority of those pilot contractors are former military that have had formal training on low altitude and mountainous terrain operations.

Most RJ pilots load their pants when you take their flight director away from them. An RJ pilot is not what you want in Afghanistan.

 

[CitationLover]

Professionalism is up to the individual pilots/crews.

Look at the Pinnacle accident. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that no matter how professional the training can be, two yahoo's still ended up in the cockpit together.

How much training did the Blackwater guys get? Is it simply hiring qualified CASA and Metro pilots and shipping them out?