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Blackwater aviation.....why not use military pilots

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...What's occuring in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different.

they have 10 times the number of contractors these days in the gulf than in the 1st gulf war. what dick cheney started and rumsfeld aggressively pursued have outsourced and bled the military dry.
 
they have 10 times the number of contractors these days in the gulf than in the 1st gulf war. what dick cheney started and rumsfeld aggressively pursued have outsourced and bled the military dry.

You are comparing trying to rebuild Iraq, and to an war fighting the Iraqi armed forces. Thats not quite a valid comparison. Tell us about the occupation of Iraq in the first war in 91.

So if you are saying the military is being outsourced and privatized, are you saying that Blackwater, Presidental, ICI, etc are equivalent to military units, and part of offensive efforts against insurgents too?
 
You are comparing trying to rebuild Iraq, and to an war fighting the Iraqi armed forces. Thats not quite a valid comparison. Tell us about the occupation of Iraq in the first war in 91.

So if you are saying the military is being outsourced and privatized, are you saying that Blackwater, Presidental, ICI, etc are equivalent to military units, and part of offensive efforts against insurgents too?

well we occupied part of saudi arabia for 4 months in 1990 as a precursor to the war with 5 times the numbers we see in iraq today yet with 1/10th the number of contractors. do you magically see the contractors disappearing once the iraq occupation ends? why is blackwater "assisting" the coast guard during katrina in new orleans?

as to your second part, it isn't what I'm saying, it's what THEY ARE saying. Blackwater has always used the Feres Doctrine in EVERY defense strategy for their numerous lawsuits.
 
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The US military was an occupational military force in Saudi? Gee, I seem to have forgotten where we fought the Saudis and took over part of their country.

You neglected to mention that the contractor number includes Iraqis working for us there.

Nor was there an occupational and rebuilding effort for Iraq after GW1. Construction workers, linguists, food services, and bureaucrats do not have to be military, nor should they be.

Your whole argument was that there are 100,000 people in Iraq doing military jobs, and that you bring up Blackwater and Dyncorp.

Yet those two companies are about 2-3 percent of the contractors there. So much for that massive contractor force doing military ops.
 
The US military was an occupational military force in Saudi? Gee, I seem to have forgotten where we fought the Saudis and took over part of their country.

You neglected to mention that the contractor number includes Iraqis working for us there.

Nor was there an occupational and rebuilding effort for Iraq after GW1. Construction workers, linguists, food services, and bureaucrats do not have to be military, nor should they be.

Your whole argument was that there are 100,000 people in Iraq doing military jobs, and that you bring up Blackwater and Dyncorp.

Yet those two companies are about 2-3 percent of the contractors there. So much for that massive contractor force doing military ops.

and this is different from the us military with its internal support structure? how many troops in iraq are dedicated to combat operations versus logistics and support?

i didn't NEGLECT anything, it's in the washington post article THAT I POSTED. are you high? it also includes those fine outstanding Chileans that Blackwater hired as mercs, they learned their "skills" torturing other Chileans under Pinochet.

do you deny the us military and its associated coalition occupied saudi land for 4 months leading up to the gulf war where logistically contractors and internal support were used to maintain them? that force dwarfed the current one in iraq and used 1/10th the number of contractors.

you must really like secretary rumsfeld. he did a heck of a job planning the "restructuring and rebuilding" in iraq. i guess his plan of borrowing the old central american death squad plan and sent in john negroponte to execute it failed. but hey when the numerous IG's are in the contractors pockets anything goes.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12596
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...,3649705.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

if you don't believe me, how about Gen. Powell (who I guess knows nothing on this subject) who stated "the active Army is about broken".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/17/AR2006121700494.html

will you trust hillary to allow her favorite businesses to come in and subcontract? keep your head in the sand. can we not call them contractors, but what they really are: mercenaries.
 
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CL take your political rantings somewhere else. We get it -- you don't like GWB and can't wait for HRC.

The BW pilots are some of the most experienced pilots in the type of flying they do: mountainous terrain, low level, airdrop, dirt landings, underpowered equipment, and demanding customers. All in a threat environment. They do it so often that it becomes commonplace. And I bet most pilots can testify that when they fly similar routes over and over and over again, they too have made mistakes, albeit less costly than these guys. Overall, BW's record is pretty darn good considering the number sorties they fly. MAybe they're over there because they want to help out?

"ANALYSIS
The unpressurized airplane collided with mountainous terrain at an elevation of 14,650 feet msl in a box canyon about 80 nm west of the departure airport in daylight visual meteorological conditions. "
Get your facts straight next time you launch a diatribe. It'll help your credibility.
Great avatar USMCairwinger.
 
CL take your political rantings somewhere else. We get it -- you don't like GWB and can't wait for HRC.

The BW pilots are some of the most experienced pilots in the type of flying they do: mountainous terrain, low level, airdrop, dirt landings, underpowered equipment, and demanding customers. All in a threat environment. They do it so often that it becomes commonplace. And I bet most pilots can testify that when they fly similar routes over and over and over again, they too have made mistakes, albeit less costly than these guys. Overall, BW's record is pretty darn good considering the number sorties they fly. MAybe they're over there because they want to help out?

"ANALYSIS
The unpressurized airplane collided with mountainous terrain at an elevation of 14,650 feet msl in a box canyon about 80 nm west of the departure airport in daylight visual meteorological conditions. "
Get your facts straight next time you launch a diatribe. It'll help your credibility.
Great avatar USMCairwinger.

i admit my misspeak, but you still don't address the original question.

my facts are straight, Blackwater has manipulated itself and insulated itself by hiring former IG's and Cofer Black. the point about Hillary was not about me voting for her (far from it), but rather will you trust her private contractors she likes to fly for the military as the precedent is set. i guess you think Colin Powell is wrong too.

and get it straight. they are over their to MAKE MONEY, not some patriotic duty. why would they hire Chileans if it is patriotic. it appears to me the military folks on this board are making the same mistake major airlines made with regard to scope, simply turning a blind eye until it is too late.
 
i admit my misspeak, but you still don't address the original question.

my facts are straight, Blackwater has manipulated itself and insulated itself by hiring former IG's and Cofer Black. the point about Hillary was not about me voting for her (far from it), but rather will you trust her private contractors she likes to fly for the military as the precedent is set. i guess you think Colin Powell is wrong too.

and get it straight. they are over their to MAKE MONEY, not some patriotic duty. why would they hire Chileans if it is patriotic. it appears to me the military folks on this board are making the same mistake major airlines made with regard to scope, simply turning a blind eye until it is too late.

And this wrong? Whether private company or military, it is all still a business with budgets and politics.
Mercenaries have been in use since 12BC or thereabouts. It will never change.

Why can't the military do the jobs you speak of? Because, bottom line, it is cheaper to use PMC's (or whatever you want to call them). For every combat soldier, there are dozens of other military personel in the role of support. Mercs are much more efficient...plus, they WANT to be over there.
 
And this wrong? Whether private company or military, it is all still a business with budgets and politics.
Mercenaries have been in use since 12BC or thereabouts. It will never change.

Why can't the military do the jobs you speak of? Because, bottom line, it is cheaper to use PMC's (or whatever you want to call them). For every combat soldier, there are dozens of other military personel in the role of support. Mercs are much more efficient...plus, they WANT to be over there.

so expanding on your logic, why have a military at all? simply outsource it all since it is cheaper. this is a goal of blackwater with regards to darfur. cofer black lobbied for a private army to go in there when he spoke in jordan.

it's questionable whether it is cheaper too. Blackwater has married itself to the current establishment and hired lots of ex admin officials to guarantee it's contracts. cronyism doesn't guarantee cheaper, quite the opposite. but hey, no bid contracts were loved by rumsfeld.

erik prince and joseph schmitz are radical catholics with their own holy agenda. they love their Sovereign Military Order of Malta. thankfully god has a sense of humor and mary kay letourneau, with her love of 15yr olds, is schmitz's sister showing what happens to these ultra fundamentalist families.
 
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erik prince and joseph schmitz are radical catholics with their own holy agenda. they love their Sovereign Military Order of Malta. thankfully god has a sense of humor and mary kay letourneau, with her love of 15yr olds, is schmitz's sister showing what happens to these ultra fundamentalist families.

Wow CL, time to log off for a while. Go somewhere... like Alaska for a week, do some fishing.

Either that, or convince FI to start your own section on here so you can argue with yourself for the next 1500 posts.
 
can we not call them contractors, but what they really are: mercenaries.

No, not at all. You haven't a clue whence you speak.

Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to haul garbage from A to B? That's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to dismantle explosives? Because that's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to provide airlift support? Because that's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to carry a firearm in the pursuit of his or her duties? Because that's what some contractors do.

Is a soldier a mercenary when he or she draws a paycheck for hauling garbage from A to B? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary because he or she gets paid to dismantle explosives? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary because he or she gets paid to provide airlift support? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary becausehe r she ets pid to carry a firarm in the performance of his or her duties? Soldiers do that. You know that.

The same organization pays both; the government of the United States of America. Both are funded by taxpayer dollars. Both wear protective gear, uniforms of different sorts. Both face the same risks, the same dangers, both take pay for doing the same job. You'd have to be a bloody idiot to suggest that one is a mercenary and one isn't; standing side by side, being wounded side by side, serving the same country, the same mission, in the same sand and mud.

You in your absolute arrogance don't have a clue wht you're talking about. You read a washington post article and consider yourself informed. We've been running missions for decades, centuries even, in and out of uniform in all forms. You might even try to suggest that it's only noble to die draped in the flag or in a uniform, but you must not know that when one dies in the service of one's country, when one draw's one's last breath...dead is dead. Serving the same master, the same mission, with the same citizenship, awnsering a call put out by the government, is not acting as a mercenary. A soldier lives under a contract as an employee of the government. A contacor lives under a conract to the government too.

We as a nation employed contractors to fight native Americans, we fought as a rag-tag civil guerilla force in the defense of what became our country. We employed privateers and the merchant marine, and contractors in nearly every aspect of building our country from the earliest days until now. We are limited in what we can field for military force. Money isn't being diverted to contractors so we can downsize the military; contractors are employed as force multipliers in order to maximize the effort that can be made by the military. Does the military need to squander it's resources hauling shipments cross country when a contractor can do that just as easily and not tie up military vehicles and personnel? Does the military need to use it's resources to do everything the contractor does today? No, and it doesn't. Take away the contractors, and you don't have an army to fight with because the army would be completely absorbed into the menial tasks and labor taken over by the contractor (and historically, far less efficiently). You see, the army can waste and doesn't need to turn a profit. The contractor must, and is bound by very strict contracting requirements. I can vouch for that.

Could the USAF continue to fly without the heavy support of contractors that maintain aircraft and do so much of what gets done today to keep the USAF airborne? Not on your life, and the USAF doesn't have the size or capability to do it...nor should the USAF tie up it's resources doing it. The military has a mission to do.

You may not see what often amounts to an opaque support structure that's not on center stage, but every aspect of what makes the military mission possible is civillian, from the making of the uniform to the design and production of the weapons, vehicles, and aircraft, to the production, distribution, and even serving of the food. Where do you suppose the ammunition comes from? Then again, where do you think soldiers come from? Civillians.

Is a woman sewing a uniform, getting paid for her job, a mercenary? Of course not. Not even you are that dense. Neither is the contractor, serving at risk of loss of life in the same sand as the uniformed soldier, any more a mercenary. That same contractor, present at behest of the same government (civillian government, mind you) that put the soldier there...both employees of the same employer, both getting paid to do the job.

You push your luck when you speak of things you don't understand. Perhaps you should go bury yourself in Washington Post and leave reality to those who understand it a little better. When you're ready to crawl out from under that paper, you might try it with a little more respect.
 
No, not at all. You haven't a clue whence you speak.

Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to haul garbage from A to B? That's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to dismantle explosives? Because that's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to provide airlift support? Because that's what contractors do. Is a contractor a mercenary because he or she gets paid to carry a firearm in the pursuit of his or her duties? Because that's what some contractors do.

Is a soldier a mercenary when he or she draws a paycheck for hauling garbage from A to B? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary because he or she gets paid to dismantle explosives? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary because he or she gets paid to provide airlift support? Soldiers do that, you know. Is a soldier a mercenary becausehe r she ets pid to carry a firarm in the performance of his or her duties? Soldiers do that. You know that.

The same organization pays both; the government of the United States of America. Both are funded by taxpayer dollars. Both wear protective gear, uniforms of different sorts. Both face the same risks, the same dangers, both take pay for doing the same job. You'd have to be a bloody idiot to suggest that one is a mercenary and one isn't; standing side by side, being wounded side by side, serving the same country, the same mission, in the same sand and mud.

You in your absolute arrogance don't have a clue wht you're talking about. You read a washington post article and consider yourself informed. We've been running missions for decades, centuries even, in and out of uniform in all forms. You might even try to suggest that it's only noble to die draped in the flag or in a uniform, but you must not know that when one dies in the service of one's country, when one draw's one's last breath...dead is dead. Serving the same master, the same mission, with the same citizenship, awnsering a call put out by the government, is not acting as a mercenary. A soldier lives under a contract as an employee of the government. A contacor lives under a conract to the government too.

We as a nation employed contractors to fight native Americans, we fought as a rag-tag civil guerilla force in the defense of what became our country. We employed privateers and the merchant marine, and contractors in nearly every aspect of building our country from the earliest days until now. We are limited in what we can field for military force. Money isn't being diverted to contractors so we can downsize the military; contractors are employed as force multipliers in order to maximize the effort that can be made by the military. Does the military need to squander it's resources hauling shipments cross country when a contractor can do that just as easily and not tie up military vehicles and personnel? Does the military need to use it's resources to do everything the contractor does today? No, and it doesn't. Take away the contractors, and you don't have an army to fight with because the army would be completely absorbed into the menial tasks and labor taken over by the contractor (and historically, far less efficiently). You see, the army can waste and doesn't need to turn a profit. The contractor must, and is bound by very strict contracting requirements. I can vouch for that.

Could the USAF continue to fly without the heavy support of contractors that maintain aircraft and do so much of what gets done today to keep the USAF airborne? Not on your life, and the USAF doesn't have the size or capability to do it...nor should the USAF tie up it's resources doing it. The military has a mission to do.

You may not see what often amounts to an opaque support structure that's not on center stage, but every aspect of what makes the military mission possible is civillian, from the making of the uniform to the design and production of the weapons, vehicles, and aircraft, to the production, distribution, and even serving of the food. Where do you suppose the ammunition comes from? Then again, where do you think soldiers come from? Civillians.

Is a woman sewing a uniform, getting paid for her job, a mercenary? Of course not. Not even you are that dense. Neither is the contractor, serving at risk of loss of life in the same sand as the uniformed soldier, any more a mercenary. That same contractor, present at behest of the same government (civillian government, mind you) that put the soldier there...both employees of the same employer, both getting paid to do the job.

You push your luck when you speak of things you don't understand. Perhaps you should go bury yourself in Washington Post and leave reality to those who understand it a little better. When you're ready to crawl out from under that paper, you might try it with a little more respect.

thank god civilians tell you what to do.

the thread is primarily regarding Blackwater and yes most of them are mercs. the chileans, bolivians, hondurans, etc they employ that walk around in their oakleys. the ones cofer black wants to send to darfur. the ones who shot up 15 civilians in iraq.

mercenaries.

btw, you forgot flying people (sometimes innocent people) to uzbekistan so they can be tortured as a "mission".
 
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Wow CL, time to log off for a while. Go somewhere... like Alaska for a week, do some fishing.

Either that, or convince FI to start your own section on here so you can argue with yourself for the next 1500 posts.

yes instead of arguing about the factual information contained in there, go on the offensive. chesty puller would be proud.
 

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