Big 3 Bailout dead in Senate. GOP wanted steep UAW wage cuts, that was dealbreaker

Andy Neill

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So....you wanted the measure to be passed....to give billions to Ford which has lost an average of $0.42 per share per quarter for the last 19 quarters....or to GM which has lost an average of over $9.00 per share per quarter for the last 19 quarters....or to Daimler (Chrysler) a huge German-owned conglomerate? The death of that measure is a good thing. In bankruptcy, they can develop a workable business plan instead of continuing with an unworkable plan.
 

AZ Typed

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Rental car this week: Ford Focus with 2400 miles, first the tire goes flat (alright, I'll give that one a free pass, despite the weak-looking rims), then the engine blows up (oil smoke so thick I couldn't see through it in the rear-view mirror). Swap into a Chrystler with 12,000 miles, engine light on, weird noises while driving down the road, can't see blindspots, etc.

This is the JUNK that the Big 3 are producing...and we should subsidize this?

And I'm from Detroit.
 

LRvsH25B

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Oh hey look, I agree with both you guys. I drive a Nissan. But AIG just got 150B+, no questions asked; now they're giving out $90,400 to 4M in bonus payments to 168 people and keeping their flight department. The big 3 want 25B in loans and the GOP tells them to fuk off? Where is their morality with the AIG issues. Where is it? I've not heard one of them say sh!t. AIG took YOUR money and gave out bullsh!t bonuses. WTF?

(Sidenote: Daimler does not own Chrysler. What are you talking about Andy? Cerberus Capital Management, a private equity investment firm owns the automaker. The Germans have nothing to do with it. Why would you say that?)


How much has Citibank and AIG lost this year? How much? What about Freddie and Fannie? How much have they lost this year? A lot more than the automakers. We GAVE them money, no questions asked.

Chapter 11 is not an option, and why people don't see that simply stuns me. Nobody, including you and I, would not buy a car from a company in bankrupcy. You'd be a fool to do it, and you know you wouldn't buy from a car maker in that situation. In Chapter 11, they would no longer be obligated to honor ANY warranty. You bought a car 3 days ago, brand new, guess what.....It's already out of warranty. People aren't stupid enough to go buy a car in that situation. Remember when the airlines filed Chapter 11, they dumped the pensions of the people who built the company.

The GOP is not asking dealers, suppliers, or anybody else BUT the WORKERS to take a pay cut. This is clearly payback. They automakers are not asking for us to subsidize anything. They want loans. Big difference.

When the automakers lay off workers by the tens of thousands, you'll feel that. It going to cost a lot more to keep them in business than it would to let them go. It would break the back of the economy. The tonnage of the trickle down effect is enormous. Suppliers, tool makers, etc will all go under. You're looking at 3M+ people on the street in addition to those on the street today. The US had a 26 year high in unemployment claims last week, so yeah, let's go ahead and pile on.
 
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Hawker800

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I drive a Chevrolet Tahoe. Never had any issues with it. Love the thing. But I know this. You can't pay a person $50 an hour to build a car and expect to sell it to a person making $10.00 an hour. The bubble will burst. A GM employee told this to me 15 years ago. Guess the bubble exploded. I lost heavely on GM stock. Do not use my tax dollars to bail the damn things out!
 

Andy Neill

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Oh hey look, I agree with both you guys. I drive a Nissan. But AIG just got 150B+, no questions asked; now they're giving out $90,400 to 4M in bonus payments to 168 people and keeping their flight department.
THat's why I applauded my congressman for voting against the Wall St bailout twice in as many days. I'm livid that the Congress passed such a handout without the teeth to block the abuses you cite.

The big 3 want 25B in loans and the GOP tells them to fuk off? Where is their morality with the AIG issues. Where is it? I've not heard one of them say sh!t. AIG took YOUR money and gave out bullsh!t bonuses. WTF?
...but you DO see the GOP in Congress predominantly vote against both, do you not?

(Sidenote: Daimler does not own Chrysler. What are you talking about Andy? Cerberus Capital Management, a private equity investment firm owns the automaker. The Germans have nothing to do with it. Why would you say that?)
My mistake. Dailmer did own Chrysler until last year when they sold it to Cerebus. By the way, Cerebus is named for the mythical three-headed dog that guarded the door in Hades. This from another site:

Although Cerberus owns 80% of now troubled Chrysler Corporation, it has refused to inject cash into Chrysler.... Ginny Brown-Waite, Chrysler President and CEO Robert Nardelli said that Cerberus' other fiduciary obligations to its other investors and investments prohibited it from injecting capital.

So the owner is acting responsibly in respect to their investors and we expect Congress to inject the necessary funds in a business with a flawed plan?

How much has Citibank and AIG lost this year? How much? What about Freddie and Fannie? How much have they lost this year? A lot more than the automakers. We GAVE them money, no questions asked.
Against my wishes.....as previously stated.
Chapter 11 is not an option, and why people don't see that simply stuns me. Nobody, including you and I, would not buy a car from a company in bankrupcy. You'd be a fool to do it, and you know you wouldn't buy from a car maker in that situation. In Chapter 11, they would no longer be obligated to honor ANY warranty. You bought a car 3 days ago, brand new, guess what.....It's already out of warranty. People aren't stupid enough to go buy a car in that situation. Remember when the airlines filed Chapter 11, they dumped the pensions of the people who built the company.
Did people stop flying on Delta, United, America West, Continental, Comair, Frontier or any other airline that has been in bankruptcy? Why? THey may have gotten to the airport and found their tickets dishonored.

The GOP is not asking dealers, suppliers, or anybody else BUT the WORKERS to take a pay cut. This is clearly payback. They automakers are not asking for us to subsidize anything. They want loans. Big difference.

They are asking that the automakers come up with a viable plan before opening the public wallet.
When the automakers lay off workers by the tens of thousands, you'll feel that. It going to cost a lot more to keep them in business than it would to let them go. It would break the back of the economy. The tonnage of the trickle down effect is enormous. Suppliers, tool makers, etc will all go under. You're looking at 3M+ people on the street in addition to those on the street today. The US had a 26 year high in unemployment claims last week, so yeah, let's go ahead and pile on.

yeah, and the US will have to go to other countries for it's defense needs according to one of Michigan's senators. It is not a case of all or nothing. A new auto industry with a workable business plan will emerge. I know if I were sitting in the CEO's seat, I would rather take my company into bankruptcy to restructure rather than close the doors. Wouldn't you?
 
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LRvsH25B

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THat's why I applauded my congressman for voting against the Wall St bailout twice in as many days. I'm livid that the Congress passed such a handout without the teeth to block the abuses you cite.
...but you DO see the GOP in Congress predominantly vote against both, do you not?
No, I don't. There was no vote in Congress pertaining to AIG. AIG picked up the phone and got the funds they wanted without conditions and without having to go through checks and balances. They called their buds over in the Treasury Department and got 150B, no questions asked.

I would rather take my company into bankruptcy to restructure rather than close the doors. Wouldn't you?
In any other industry, yes, but not the auto industry. People won't buy. AIG should have filed Chapter 11 so they could reorganize their Default Credit Swaps.
 

LJ45

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Andy Neill

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No, I don't. There was no vote in Congress pertaining to AIG. AIG picked up the phone and got the funds they wanted without conditions and without having to go through checks and balances. They called their buds over in the Treasury Department and got 150B, no questions asked.
Treasury disbursed unappropriated funds? Somewhere along the line, Congress with a Democratic majority appropriated that money.
AIG should have filed Chapter 11 so they could reorganize their Default Credit Swaps.
No argument from me on that point.
 

LJ45

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and why is this in the corporate forum?
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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and why is this in the corporate forum?

Perhaps because we are tired of corporate welfare at citizen tax payers expense...


Socialism for the Rich

Truthdig

By Robert Scheer


December 10, 2008


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Robert Scheer is the editor of Truthdig, where this article originally appeared. His latest book is The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America(Twelve).
Let the record show that it was George W. Bush, the rich Texas Republican, who brought socialism to America, so don't blame it on that African-American Chicago Democrat community organizer who made it into the White House. The government takeover of the banking and automobile industries not only happened on President Bush's watch, it was also the deregulatory mania of this president's family, beginning with his father, which took this country into such starkly unfamiliar territory.





What a betrayal of free-market capitalism. And who would have thought that it would be the candidates backed by conservative pundits Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh who made it possible? You actually could trace the destruction of corporate capitalism to the much-ballyhooed "Reagan Revolution" of the movie actor who got his main training for the presidency as a huckster for General Electric, where he honed the message of "getting government off our backs." The revolution of unfettered corporate capitalism led to an era of unfettered corporate greed, which sowed the seeds of its own destruction.
True, the Democrats deserve much blame. The Wall Street runaway wouldn't have happened if President Bill Clinton hadn't cheered it on. The Great Triangulator provided seamless continuity between the administrations of the two Bushes in systematically dismantling the proven regulatory system, introduced by President Franklin D. Roosevelt, that saved capitalism from itself during the Great Depression. The danger with the incoming Democratic president is that Barack Obama has turned to some of the Clinton alums, most prominently former Clinton treasury secretary Lawrence Summers, to get us out of the mess that the Clinton administration worked mightily to create.
At least in the auto bailout there is some talk from the Democrats that the failed corporate leaders must be fired as a condition of salvaging their corporate entities--and stock options. Both political parties are tougher in the auto bailout than they were in the Wall Street rescue, but what do you expect when leadership on this issue is coming from Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson? Like Robert Rubin, Clinton's first treasury secretary and now Obama confidante, Paulson came to government service immediately after heading up Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street powerhouse at the epicenter of the banking collapse. For the key practitioners of America's brave new game of corporate socialism, failure has its own lush reward.
It's enough to drive one back to the invisible hand of Adam Smith. Personally, I would rather we took our chances these days with letting the corporations sink or swim on their own without government interference. If tough love was good enough for troubled families cut off the public dole by Clinton's welfare reform, which summarily ended the federal poverty program, why have a poverty program for troubled corporations?
Forget saving the auto companies; let them become Japanese- or South Korean-owned, but sweeten the deal with US government guarantees of extended unemployment insurance, health care, retirement plan protection and job retraining for laid-off autoworkers. Be generous on the worker end, and figure out ways to reclaim the big bucks from the banking and auto moguls who ripped off the American dream. The only reason the moguls are not going to jail for their shenanigans is that they got their supplicants in Congress from both parties to rewrite the laws to legalize activities that should have been judged as crimes.
If we are to have an expansion of government on this scale, we should start with extending health coverage to all Americans rather than with government bureaucrats micromanaging auto companies. Government-insured health care works. All the doctors I see want me to be on Medicare, and not one of them is eager to deal with the medical insurance provided to me as a retiree after thirty years of employment by the Los Angeles Times--insurance now threatened by my once-proud capitalist employer seeking bankruptcy protection. A protection, incidentally, that a bipartisan congressional majority made much more difficult for individuals to use when we get in personal financial trouble.
With the exception of my years as an undergraduate, when I sorted mail late into the night at the post office near Manhattan's Grand Central Terminal, I have never been on the public payroll. Thanks to the Reagan Revolution, and its endgame of socialism for the rich, we all may end up on the public dole, scrambling for droppings from a too heavily laden nationalized table. Socialism for the rich is not the way to go.
 

BoilerUP

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and why is this in the corporate forum?
Because over hundred corporate aviation flying & non-flying jobs were sacrificed by the Big 3 in order to appease Congress and get said "bailout"?
 

LRvsH25B

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Let me guess...you are pro-union? By the way, you are comparing apples and oranges. :uzi:
I fail to see how that is comparing apples to oragnes. And dont go pulling out some Voodoo economics to rationalize your response. I don't give 2 sh!ts about the unions. I just find it amusing how so many union members vote GOP. It's the same as all of us corporate pilots voting Carl Ichan head of the NBAA. Finally, you wonder why this is in the corporate section 2 posts after you posted this one. Why did you respond to this in the 1st place. I guess my post p!ssed you off because you assumed I was pro union, and now you want to know why it's in the corporate section.
 

fencitup

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I fail to see how that is comparing apples to oragnes. And dont go pulling out some Voodoo economics to rationalize your response. I don't give 2 sh!ts about the unions. I just find it amusing how so many union members vote GOP. It's the same as all of us corporate pilots voting Carl Ichan head of the NBAA. Finally, you wonder why this is in the corporate section 2 posts after you posted this one. Why did you respond to this in the 1st place. I guess my post p!ssed you off because you assumed I was pro union, and now you want to know why it's in the corporate section.
H25B,
I agree with you. Some people will never see the light. They are the same ones that STILL believe we are liberating in Iraq.
 

johnsonrod

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The Big 3 need to go into Chap 11 to restructure. If we give them $14B now, they will burn through that same tax-payer money and enter Chap 11 a few months down the line anyway...

GM and Chrysler and managed by incompetent boobs. They deserve to downsize. Ford has $18B in cash - clearly Mullaly from Boeing is managing it better than the others. The UAW is out of whack with reality - especially when employees of Japanese car manufacturers based in Alabama do the same job for $30 less per hour - THAT'S LUDICROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

BoilerUP

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The Big 3 need to go into Chap 11 to restructure. If we give them $14B now, they will burn through that same tax-payer money and enter Chap 11 a few months down the line anyway...
Did you feel the same way about the round of legacy airline bankruptcy filings post-9/11?

GM and Chrysler and managed by incompetent boobs. They deserve to downsize. Ford has $18B in cash - clearly Mullaly from Boeing is managing it better than the others. The UAW is out of whack with reality - especially when employees of Japanese car manufacturers based in Alabama do the same job for $30 less per hour - THAT'S LUDICROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alabama workers don't work for $30 less hourly pay than UAW workers. The UAW "cost per hour per employee" is higher because it includes health care and pension obligations to retired workers....obligations which the newer foreign-owned competition doesn't have due to their relative late entry into the US market. As such, the parallels between foreign manufacturers and the Big 3 with low-cost and legacy airlines is one worth noting and considering.

I also find it somewhat telling that the GOP Senators from Alabama are the biggest opponents to the bailout...considering their state stands to gain handsomely from the collapse of one or more domestic automakers.
 

AA717driver

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Let's face it--the U.S. is a country of screwups. Sure there are exceptions but the same people who can't manage to get 6 Chicken McFragments into a box and give you a regular Coke instead of a Diet are the same ones who make these cars--or manage AIG. Just different diplomas.

No one gives a crap about doing a good job anymore--AND no one cares!

If we flew airplanes like most companies are managed and like most employees work, it would be raining aluminum.

And the most worthless individuals end up getting elected.

I really don't care if they bail out the Big 3 or not, the die is cast on our future. Stick a fork in us, Goldman Sachs owns our asses now and the Constitution is as irrelevant as cave paintings in AZ.

TC
 

johnsonrod

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Did you feel the same way about the round of legacy airline bankruptcy filings post-9/11?



Alabama workers don't work for $30 less hourly pay than UAW workers. The UAW "cost per hour per employee" is higher because it includes health care and pension obligations to retired workers....obligations which the newer foreign-owned competition doesn't have due to their relative late entry into the US market. As such, the parallels between foreign manufacturers and the Big 3 with low-cost and legacy airlines is one worth noting and considering.

I also find it somewhat telling that the GOP Senators from Alabama are the biggest opponents to the bailout...considering their state stands to gain handsomely from the collapse of one or more domestic automakers.

Where does it end BoilerUp? Should we bail out every industry impacted by the economic crisis? Housing industry? Hotel industry? All of the airlines? Should we use more debt to cover for bad management mistakes or a complete lack of risk management? What ever happened to risk management and preparing for worst-case scenarios?

Anyone who feels that the UAW package is acceptable (including the provision that someone can stay home and accept 95% of their pay for two years - it's called the "Job Bank" I believe) is seriously OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. The Big 3 have been industry laggards for years. The last American car I owned broke down constantly - I bought Japanese and have never had any issues. And my car was probably built in Alabama.

In the end, we shouldn't use my hard-earned tax dollars to merely DELAY their Chapter 11 filings... Ford appears in better shape ($18B in cash) because it was probably managed better. How many brands does GM offer? Too many. You do not reward bad behavior because the systemic changes that are required NOW will be delayed...
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Big questions.... any answers...

Corporations are not democracies. How do we as employees and citizens ensure that corporations are run effectively? Because if corps are not run effectively it seems we all pay for it in many ways.

How do we as citizens ensure that our elected officials are smart and effective? Because these elected officials seems to be highly intertwined in the bail out rescue of the corporations that are not run democratically that effect so many employees and citizens.....
 

LJ45

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H25B,
I agree with you. Some people will never see the light. They are the same ones that STILL believe we are liberating in Iraq.
in your opinion what have we been doing? :confused:
 
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