Big 3 Bailout dead in Senate. GOP wanted steep UAW wage cuts, that was dealbreaker

[BoilerUP]

The Big 3 need to go into Chap 11 to restructure. If we give them $14B now, they will burn through that same tax-payer money and enter Chap 11 a few months down the line anyway...

Did you feel the same way about the round of legacy airline bankruptcy filings post-9/11?

GM and Chrysler and managed by incompetent boobs. They deserve to downsize. Ford has $18B in cash - clearly Mullaly from Boeing is managing it better than the others. The UAW is out of whack with reality - especially when employees of Japanese car manufacturers based in Alabama do the same job for $30 less per hour - THAT'S LUDICROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alabama workers don't work for $30 less hourly pay than UAW workers. The UAW "cost per hour per employee" is higher because it includes health care and pension obligations to retired workers....obligations which the newer foreign-owned competition doesn't have due to their relative late entry into the US market. As such, the parallels between foreign manufacturers and the Big 3 with low-cost and legacy airlines is one worth noting and considering.

I also find it somewhat telling that the GOP Senators from Alabama are the biggest opponents to the bailout...considering their state stands to gain handsomely from the collapse of one or more domestic automakers.

 

[AA717driver]

Let's face it--the U.S. is a country of screwups. Sure there are exceptions but the same people who can't manage to get 6 Chicken McFragments into a box and give you a regular Coke instead of a Diet are the same ones who make these cars--or manage AIG. Just different diplomas.

No one gives a crap about doing a good job anymore--AND no one cares!

If we flew airplanes like most companies are managed and like most employees work, it would be raining aluminum.

And the most worthless individuals end up getting elected.

I really don't care if they bail out the Big 3 or not, the die is cast on our future. Stick a fork in us, Goldman Sachs owns our asses now and the Constitution is as irrelevant as cave paintings in AZ.

TC

 

[johnsonrod]

Did you feel the same way about the round of legacy airline bankruptcy filings post-9/11?



Alabama workers don't work for $30 less hourly pay than UAW workers. The UAW "cost per hour per employee" is higher because it includes health care and pension obligations to retired workers....obligations which the newer foreign-owned competition doesn't have due to their relative late entry into the US market. As such, the parallels between foreign manufacturers and the Big 3 with low-cost and legacy airlines is one worth noting and considering.

I also find it somewhat telling that the GOP Senators from Alabama are the biggest opponents to the bailout...considering their state stands to gain handsomely from the collapse of one or more domestic automakers.

Where does it end BoilerUp? Should we bail out every industry impacted by the economic crisis? Housing industry? Hotel industry? All of the airlines? Should we use more debt to cover for bad management mistakes or a complete lack of risk management? What ever happened to risk management and preparing for worst-case scenarios?

Anyone who feels that the UAW package is acceptable (including the provision that someone can stay home and accept 95% of their pay for two years - it's called the "Job Bank" I believe) is seriously OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. The Big 3 have been industry laggards for years. The last American car I owned broke down constantly - I bought Japanese and have never had any issues. And my car was probably built in Alabama.

In the end, we shouldn't use my hard-earned tax dollars to merely DELAY their Chapter 11 filings... Ford appears in better shape ($18B in cash) because it was probably managed better. How many brands does GM offer? Too many. You do not reward bad behavior because the systemic changes that are required NOW will be delayed...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Big questions.... any answers...

Corporations are not democracies. How do we as employees and citizens ensure that corporations are run effectively? Because if corps are not run effectively it seems we all pay for it in many ways.

How do we as citizens ensure that our elected officials are smart and effective? Because these elected officials seems to be highly intertwined in the bail out rescue of the corporations that are not run democratically that effect so many employees and citizens.....

 

[LJ45]

H25B,
I agree with you. Some people will never see the light. They are the same ones that STILL believe we are liberating in Iraq.

in your opinion what have we been doing?

 

[LJ45]

I fail to see how that is comparing apples to oragnes. And dont go pulling out some Voodoo economics to rationalize your response. I don't give 2 sh!ts about the unions. I just find it amusing how so many union members vote GOP. It's the same as all of us corporate pilots voting Carl Ichan head of the NBAA. Finally, you wonder why this is in the corporate section 2 posts after you posted this one. Why did you respond to this in the 1st place. I guess my post p!ssed you off because you assumed I was pro union, and now you want to know why it's in the corporate section.

No, you didn't "pi$$ me off" I guess you are mad at the GOP? Might want to be mad at our goverment, most of them stink, Dems and Reps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Might want to be mad at our goverment, most of them stink, Dems and Reps.

Who elected them there in the first place?

 

[G100driver]

Who elected them there in the first place?

Everyone else ... I love my Congressman and Senators!

 

[LRvsH25B]

in your opinion what have we been doing?

Now I am at the point where I don't know if you are kidding or being serious. He was wrong, we are liberating Iraq and at the exact same time the military is over there 'defending the rights and freedoms of US citizens', right? That is laughable. U must be kidding. What are we liberating Iraq from? The US? We went over there and illigally and without provocation, invaded their soverign country. Why? Was US 'Freedom Attacked' by the Iraqis? Come on man. We;re wrong for being over there, we're wrong for invading them, and we're wrong for justifying it. If you think it is OK to invade a country like that, if you agree with being in Iraq then youa re unpatriotic. Plane and simple, you have no respect for the men and women in uniform, the 4000+ killed, and the constitution. Don't get on here and dishonor the dead Veterans by saying they died defending our freedoms or any BS like that.. they died for nothing. Good men and women wasted. that's what people who say they died defending us in some way from Iraq did by putting them in harms ways in Iraq; wasted those good people's lives. There's is no logical reason for them to have been over there, we knew they didn't haev any weapons. Hans Blick, a well respected UN Inspector told us so. He could find no WMDs, same as the US didnt.

 

[SansPlane]

Where does it end BoilerUp?

[FONT=&quot]Johnsonrod – Why does it have to end? What the H double L are you thinking? Its Christmas brother. Now if we can add a little bit to the bailout for the charities that lost everything in the Madoff Ponzi scheme. Think of all those executive directors out there with no funds to do their good work. Throw in a little more for the Hedgies and wealthy who lost out for they also contribute to the economy much like the hard working UAW brothers and sisters. Belly-up pigs – taxpayer dollars are nothing but slop in the trough. Get while the gettin is good… [/FONT]

 

[LJ45]

Now I am at the point where I don't know if you are kidding or being serious. He was wrong, we are liberating Iraq and at the exact same time the military is over there 'defending the rights and freedoms of US citizens', right? That is laughable. U must be kidding. What are we liberating Iraq from? The US? We went over there and illigally and without provocation, invaded their soverign country. Why? Was US 'Freedom Attacked' by the Iraqis? Come on man. We;re wrong for being over there, we're wrong for invading them, and we're wrong for justifying it. If you think it is OK to invade a country like that, if you agree with being in Iraq then youa re unpatriotic. Plane and simple, you have no respect for the men and women in uniform, the 4000+ killed, and the constitution. Don't get on here and dishonor the dead Veterans by saying they died defending our freedoms or any BS like that.. they died for nothing. Good men and women wasted. that's what people who say they died defending us in some way from Iraq did by putting them in harms ways in Iraq; wasted those good people's lives. There's is no logical reason for them to have been over there, we knew they didn't haev any weapons. Hans Blick, a well respected UN Inspector told us so. He could find no WMDs, same as the US didnt.

Wow short memory, and selective take on history. I guess

Without provocation, really...didn't Sadam invade Kuwait? Didn't Sadam agree to terms of the cease fire (un)? Didn't Sadam not follow UN mandates? I guess 9/11 was enough for us to go on the offensive for rogue leaders who thumb their noses at the world. The WMD were only a small reason for the offensive move of the US. Yet some people think that is what it was all about. I think the wars stinks, I agree on that, hindsite we could have done it differently.

Put the Kool-aid down.

 

[SansPlane]

The WMD were only a small reason for the offensive move of the US.

Really? I was watching the news back then and Bush & Cheney were not really talking about WMD's being a "small reason" for invading. Guess I was just hearing what I wanted to hear - wife says it to me all the time...

 

[airplane wizard]

I drive a Chevrolet Tahoe. Never had any issues with it. Love the thing. But I know this. You can't pay a person $50 an hour to build a car and expect to sell it to a person making $10.00 an hour. The bubble will burst. A GM employee told this to me 15 years ago. Guess the bubble exploded. I lost heavely on GM stock. Do not use my tax dollars to bail the damn things out!

They pay airline capts just as much and sell tickets to people who make $10/hour.

 

[snow-back]

or to Daimler (Chrysler) a huge German-owned conglomerate?

Chrysler is over 80% owned by Cerberus Capital Management, a private equity firm.

 

[johnsonrod]

[FONT=&quot]Johnsonrod – Why does it have to end? What the H double L are you thinking? Its Christmas brother. Now if we can add a little bit to the bailout for the charities that lost everything in the Madoff Ponzi scheme. Think of all those executive directors out there with no funds to do their good work. Throw in a little more for the Hedgies and wealthy who lost out for they also contribute to the economy much like the hard working UAW brothers and sisters. Belly-up pigs – taxpayer dollars are nothing but slop in the trough. Get while the gettin is good… [/FONT]

You're kidding, right? You're drinking again, right? That's one of the lamest things I have ever heard. What a dork. Sure, saddle our country in more and more debt to bail out, in many cases, terrible managers who didn't understand risk management. We can't (and we shouldn't) bail out everyone.

If you bail out stupid people (bad managers) you are implicitly sending the message that it is OK to take huge gambles because you will have a safety net ready to catch you if you fail (it's called moral hazzard). That would be sending the wrong message. GM is a great example of a company that has been terribly mismanaged. They should have restructred years ago. It has far too many brands and it's growth rate (and market share) have dropped. It doesn't deserve tax payer money that will merely delay its eventual entry into Chap 11. GM probably required $30-50 billion to survive outside bankruptcy. The current amount offered is not enough for GM and won't last long at all - so why delay the inevitable and waste taxpayer money in the process?