Best crosswind technique for light aircraft???

[Lead Sled]

Buy an Ercoupe and the problem goes away.

'Sled

 

[UnstableAviator]

Its like operating any other piece of equipment. Look out the window and do what needs to be done to get the desired result. Its a hard thing to teach since it really only comes with experience. Its good the teach different ideas, but much like riding a bicycle the person has to learn how to do it on their own.

 

[RefugePilot]

Depends on conditions.

If its blowing hard and I am not sure of the ability to bring the nose around with rudder I will kick the nose over at 100 feet and make sure I have enough rudder. I teach students to do the same thing, to transition to the slip early to get a feel for what it takes to line it up. Just remember whatever controls you put in at 100 feet will need to be increased as the plane slows during the flare.

Except in extreme winds I will crab it all the way down to the roundout, then kick out the crab and roll the ailerons opposite. I just have to remember not to do this with students in the plane.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

1. Slip all the way down final approach and land on the runway.

2. Crab all the way down final, over the runway, and kick rudder at the last second.

3. Crab all the way down final, but then transition to a slip and land upwind main first on the runway.

#1 is used for student pilots and those who don't fly very often.
#2 is used in some large airplanes with minimum ground clearance of pod engines or minimum ground clearance to fully extended flaps. It is also used in some tailwheel airplanes where there is no forward visibility when the nose is aligned straight with the runway.
#3 is used most always except for the examples shown above. Most all aircraft can use this technique including the B777.

 

[Matt777]

#3 with the transition to the slip at about 3' AGL works great in a Seminole in 25-30 kt crosswinds... It was my last training flight before my MEI checkride and my instructor was showing me how to use his technique.

Five days later during the oral exam for my single engine CFI the examiner mentioned that he knew that some instructors at my school taught that "last minute" technique and that he didn't like it because you are transitioning to the slip so late that you don't really know if you are going to have enough rudder authority. It was the oral for my single engine CFI and Commercial (combined) so I'm not even sure now if he was even referrring to the seminole or mainly to the Cessna (if that technique even works in a light Cessna).
In a Cessna I totally agree- it is way too light of an airplane to do that in.

Anyway, it works great in an twin that is a lot heavier than a 172... but I don't think I'll teach the last minute technique to my future students unless they are experienced twin pilots already.

One day I was watching airliners landing in 25-30 knot winds in Las Vegas (awesome observation spot they have there) and they were all using #3... transitioning to the slip at the last second and landing on the upwind wheel.

What do the experienced pilots here think of kicking the rudder input out and slightly dropping the upwind wing right at 3' AGL in a light twin... at the last second basically?
Is there agreement with the examiner who doesn't like it (he has tons of commuter experience)?

Maybe the transition to the slip would be better a bit earlier?

What would you teach in a light twin?

thanks!

 

[Fugawe]

In theory you're supposed to apply 'downwind' rudder to eliminate the crab at the last second before touchdown, but no airliner I've ever watched has landed without a significant degree of sideslip-- or maybe not sideslip per se, but at least a ground track that runs slightly diagonally across the runway (i.e. not parallel to the centerline). They always touch down and then kick in rudder to line it up. What's the deal? Are these guys just not kicking the pedals before touchdown, or is a sideslipping touchdown just more acceptable in larger aircraft?

You're just not able to notice the rudder use, the pilot should have the crab out at touchdown and be aligned with the centerline when the mains touch.

Undaunted's post is correct -- the # 3 technique is used on any airliner I've flown (by most pilots anyway). Remember, it's all 'technique', but the one in the ops manual or PIH is usually the best one.

How much rudder is used, and how aggressively or how early it's applied depends on the winds. Steady light winds require only a last second application/correction. Heavy winds - a little sooner (maybe 3-5 secs before touchdown). Gusty winds require work all the way down short final to touchdown and beyond.

Few airliners or GAA aircraft are designed to handle crab landings (gear sideload problems). Fighter type jets have to land in a crab because of wing sweep, and are designed for it. The 777 guidance for winds over 31 knots direct cross (38 is current max), you accept a little crab in the landing to avoid maxing out the ailerons or having the upwind wing too low.

Xwinds are challenging sometimes. Best is to squeak one on, taxi in, then have the pax or FAs see crap blowing around and comment that they didn't know it was so windy. Just smile to yourself -- you could try explaining to them that it was a chore getting them smoothly on the ground -- but, chances are they'd not understand, or not care.

Fugawe

 

[midlifeflyer]

All 3!!!!!!

You win.

These aren't really three different techniques. They are all the same except for when you transition to the slip. The "when" is a matter of personal comfort, preference and experience.

That's the way I teach it and my students tend to naturally move their slip transition closer and closer to the runway as their experience with the maneuver increases.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

These aren't really three different techniques. They are all the same except for when you transition to the slip. The "when" is a matter of personal comfort, preference and experience.

The above statement is absolutely correct..

Now regarding technique in addition to the eventual wing down and opposite rudder: Partial flaps is best for strong crosswinds, and when the wind is so strong that the crosswind component is near the max demonstrated (recommended) limit, fly the airplane right onto the runway with the upwind wheel first (no float) while firmly pushing while sort of flying the nose wheel onto the runway without delay so as to prevent weather-cocking. Of course the aileron will be full into the wind after the upwind wheel and the airplane touche down. In most GA aircraft full aerodynamic pressure must be maintained on the upwind wheel in strong crosswinds to prevent slipage.

Also, I know of no airplane that has a crosswind limit for hand flown landings. There are maximum demonstrated limits and maximum recommended limits, but these are not aircraft limitations as is an airspeed limit or a weight and balance limit. In other words, if the max demonstrated limit for an airplane is 17k and you land with a 25k crosswind component, this is not a reason for a violation or for an insurance company to say that you exceeded the aircraft limitations.

The real crosswind limit is found when you're over the runway with full aileron and full opposite rudder and still can't hold the airplane straight without drifting. That is the crosswind limit or it may be less wind component for you personally if you're not comfortable with the gusts or the overall situation because of water, snow or ice on the runway. Your real crosswind limit therefore is whatever you are comfortable with, it may be less or it may be more than the published "limits" in the POH. This all comes down to experience and comfort level.

Questions/Comments are welcome.....

 

[wmuflyguy]

It may not be an aircraft certification thing, but rather and operational limit placed on the air carrier by the FAA.

it seems recently the company I work for put in 27kts(steady state) as max crosswind for landings with braking reported as "good". It is in the FSM for the aircraft, therefore I believe it is a legal limit.

This was fairly new I was told by a captain and it had to do with get certified for CAT II approaches.

That was the first time I ever heard of X-wind Limitiations to.

 

[Menya]

It really depends on the type of pattern flown, strength of the wind, and how responsive the aircraft is to your type of control input. You will be flying with cross controls all the way to the runway. Banking into the wind and pointing the nose at an angle to the runway and slightly into the wind will give you the best prospect on the runway.
At the point of touchdown make sure that you land with the upwind gear as you quickly use the downwind rudder to line nose with runway and the downwind wing drops onto the runway keep the aileron (yoke) into the wind.
All in all, use whatever contorl input to fly the airplane to the runway.

 

[unreal]

#3 with the transition to the slip at about 3' AGL works great in a Seminole in 25-30 kt crosswinds...

What kind of tricked out Seminole are you flying? The ones I've flown had 17 knot max demonstrated crosswind components.

But yeah, I use 3. I used 1 when I was a student pilot, and when I only flew singles as a private pilot. When I got into multis though, I swapped to 3. Never gone back...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

What kind of tricked out Seminole are you flying? The ones I've flown had 17 knot max demonstrated crosswind components.

Quote from previous post by UndauntedFlyer:

"I know of no airplane that has a crosswind limit for hand flown landings. There are maximum demonstrated limits and maximum recommended limits, but these are not aircraft limitations as is an airspeed limit or a weight and balance limit. In other words, if the max demonstrated limit for an airplane is 17k and you land with a 25k crosswind component, this is not a reason for a violation or for an insurance company to say that you exceeded the aircraft limitations."

 

[unreal]

Yeah, I just saw that. Good call.

Still, that's pretty dang good for a Seminole.

 

[Metro752]

i become one with the airplane on final, so I don't know what happens. I just close my eyes and the next thing I know I'm on the crapper in the FBO

 

[Steve]

Best crosswind technique for light aircraft???
1. Slip all the way down final approach and land on the runway.

2. Crab all the way down final, over the runway, and kick rudder at the last second.

3. Crab all the way down final, but then transition to a slip and land upwind main first on the runway.

............4. Land in a crab ........ouch. You do this in fast-mover military types, but it's quite uncomfortable and dangerous in civilian stuff.

Fugawe

Do you mean fighter ? I'd like to know which ones use this on a normal basis.