Best crosswind technique for light aircraft???

[Fugawe]

In theory you're supposed to apply 'downwind' rudder to eliminate the crab at the last second before touchdown, but no airliner I've ever watched has landed without a significant degree of sideslip-- or maybe not sideslip per se, but at least a ground track that runs slightly diagonally across the runway (i.e. not parallel to the centerline). They always touch down and then kick in rudder to line it up. What's the deal? Are these guys just not kicking the pedals before touchdown, or is a sideslipping touchdown just more acceptable in larger aircraft?

You're just not able to notice the rudder use, the pilot should have the crab out at touchdown and be aligned with the centerline when the mains touch.

Undaunted's post is correct -- the # 3 technique is used on any airliner I've flown (by most pilots anyway). Remember, it's all 'technique', but the one in the ops manual or PIH is usually the best one.

How much rudder is used, and how aggressively or how early it's applied depends on the winds. Steady light winds require only a last second application/correction. Heavy winds - a little sooner (maybe 3-5 secs before touchdown). Gusty winds require work all the way down short final to touchdown and beyond.

Few airliners or GAA aircraft are designed to handle crab landings (gear sideload problems). Fighter type jets have to land in a crab because of wing sweep, and are designed for it. The 777 guidance for winds over 31 knots direct cross (38 is current max), you accept a little crab in the landing to avoid maxing out the ailerons or having the upwind wing too low.

Xwinds are challenging sometimes. Best is to squeak one on, taxi in, then have the pax or FAs see crap blowing around and comment that they didn't know it was so windy. Just smile to yourself -- you could try explaining to them that it was a chore getting them smoothly on the ground -- but, chances are they'd not understand, or not care.

Fugawe

 

[midlifeflyer]

All 3!!!!!!

You win.

These aren't really three different techniques. They are all the same except for when you transition to the slip. The "when" is a matter of personal comfort, preference and experience.

That's the way I teach it and my students tend to naturally move their slip transition closer and closer to the runway as their experience with the maneuver increases.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

These aren't really three different techniques. They are all the same except for when you transition to the slip. The "when" is a matter of personal comfort, preference and experience.

The above statement is absolutely correct..

Now regarding technique in addition to the eventual wing down and opposite rudder: Partial flaps is best for strong crosswinds, and when the wind is so strong that the crosswind component is near the max demonstrated (recommended) limit, fly the airplane right onto the runway with the upwind wheel first (no float) while firmly pushing while sort of flying the nose wheel onto the runway without delay so as to prevent weather-cocking. Of course the aileron will be full into the wind after the upwind wheel and the airplane touche down. In most GA aircraft full aerodynamic pressure must be maintained on the upwind wheel in strong crosswinds to prevent slipage.

Also, I know of no airplane that has a crosswind limit for hand flown landings. There are maximum demonstrated limits and maximum recommended limits, but these are not aircraft limitations as is an airspeed limit or a weight and balance limit. In other words, if the max demonstrated limit for an airplane is 17k and you land with a 25k crosswind component, this is not a reason for a violation or for an insurance company to say that you exceeded the aircraft limitations.

The real crosswind limit is found when you're over the runway with full aileron and full opposite rudder and still can't hold the airplane straight without drifting. That is the crosswind limit or it may be less wind component for you personally if you're not comfortable with the gusts or the overall situation because of water, snow or ice on the runway. Your real crosswind limit therefore is whatever you are comfortable with, it may be less or it may be more than the published "limits" in the POH. This all comes down to experience and comfort level.

Questions/Comments are welcome.....

 

[wmuflyguy]

It may not be an aircraft certification thing, but rather and operational limit placed on the air carrier by the FAA.

it seems recently the company I work for put in 27kts(steady state) as max crosswind for landings with braking reported as "good". It is in the FSM for the aircraft, therefore I believe it is a legal limit.

This was fairly new I was told by a captain and it had to do with get certified for CAT II approaches.

That was the first time I ever heard of X-wind Limitiations to.

 

[Menya]

It really depends on the type of pattern flown, strength of the wind, and how responsive the aircraft is to your type of control input. You will be flying with cross controls all the way to the runway. Banking into the wind and pointing the nose at an angle to the runway and slightly into the wind will give you the best prospect on the runway.
At the point of touchdown make sure that you land with the upwind gear as you quickly use the downwind rudder to line nose with runway and the downwind wing drops onto the runway keep the aileron (yoke) into the wind.
All in all, use whatever contorl input to fly the airplane to the runway.

 

[unreal]

#3 with the transition to the slip at about 3' AGL works great in a Seminole in 25-30 kt crosswinds...

What kind of tricked out Seminole are you flying? The ones I've flown had 17 knot max demonstrated crosswind components.

But yeah, I use 3. I used 1 when I was a student pilot, and when I only flew singles as a private pilot. When I got into multis though, I swapped to 3. Never gone back...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

What kind of tricked out Seminole are you flying? The ones I've flown had 17 knot max demonstrated crosswind components.

Quote from previous post by UndauntedFlyer:

"I know of no airplane that has a crosswind limit for hand flown landings. There are maximum demonstrated limits and maximum recommended limits, but these are not aircraft limitations as is an airspeed limit or a weight and balance limit. In other words, if the max demonstrated limit for an airplane is 17k and you land with a 25k crosswind component, this is not a reason for a violation or for an insurance company to say that you exceeded the aircraft limitations."

 

[unreal]

Yeah, I just saw that. Good call.

Still, that's pretty dang good for a Seminole.

 

[Metro752]

i become one with the airplane on final, so I don't know what happens. I just close my eyes and the next thing I know I'm on the crapper in the FBO

 

[Steve]

Best crosswind technique for light aircraft???
1. Slip all the way down final approach and land on the runway.

2. Crab all the way down final, over the runway, and kick rudder at the last second.

3. Crab all the way down final, but then transition to a slip and land upwind main first on the runway.

............4. Land in a crab ........ouch. You do this in fast-mover military types, but it's quite uncomfortable and dangerous in civilian stuff.

Fugawe

Do you mean fighter ? I'd like to know which ones use this on a normal basis.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Do you mean fighter ? I'd like to know which ones use this on a normal basis.

He's probably talking about the B-52....no nose gear and the mains all pivot. In the BUFF you can land in a crab with zero side load on the gear.

 

[bubbers44]

Learn in a taildragger then you will never ever land in a crab again. #3 works from everything from a J3 cub to a B767 every time. Ground looping is kind of fun but very expensive.

 

[RefugePilot]

I think the question is as much as, how do you teach crosswind, as what technique do you use.

The feel and technique for crosswind landings takes a while to develop. I have very little faith in a student to kick out the crab and transition into the slip at the last moment, so I do not teach it, and have to be very carefull not to do it when a student is in the planew with me. So I have the student start the transition to a slip at 100 feet AGL. Once they show they have got it they can start the side slip lower and lower. I like to see the transition to start no later than the roundout. That way I can help out with the controls or initiate a go-around if the slip does not look to be working out.

As far as teaching how to control the slip, let your instructor take the throttle and give enough power to keep you in ground effect. You can float the entire length of the runway adjusting the controls and playing with the slip. As you get good you can take out and add power and bounce the upwind wheel off the runway during the low pass. Then landing in the crosswind becomes easy.

As far as crosswind busting techniques, my favorite is to land the airplane on the runway sideways. If you are in a C152 that stalls at 35KIAS, the wind is blowing 30 across the 150 foot wide runway, well you get the picture. No I have never tried it but would like to.

 

[Fugawe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugawe
Best crosswind technique for light aircraft???
1. Slip all the way down final approach and land on the runway.

2. Crab all the way down final, over the runway, and kick rudder at the last second.

3. Crab all the way down final, but then transition to a slip and land upwind main first on the runway.

............4. Land in a crab ........ouch. You do this in fast-mover military types, but it's quite uncomfortable and dangerous in civilian stuff.

Fugawe


Do you mean fighter ? I'd like to know which ones use this on a normal basis.


Any high-swept fighter-type jet lands in a crab (unless things have changed a lot). I flew the F-15, F-16, and T-38.....all touchdown in a crab. Can't remember the max x-wind limits, but 25 knots for the F-15 comes to mind.

It's a helluva jolt, and you wonder if the gear can handle it sometimes, but it is what it is. Upon touchdown, you quickly get the nose straight and maybe a little aileron into the wind if necessary.

Now, you can be a carrier pilot and always land into a direct (or almost direct) hw each time...........

I'm sure some engineers or aero masters will chime in, but here's the simple reason why you land these jets in a crab. The wings are so highly swept that if you attempt to slip on final you can easily blank the downwind wing out with the fuselage -- you'll lose lifties and bad things will happen. There are a couple of other aerodynamic reasons related to sweep, relative wind, and spanwise flow that jog my memory -- but I've long since forgetten the technical jargon. Suffice it to say, you don't screw with the rudder on final. It's a little disconcerting to be staring out the side of the canopy as you touchdown in a big xwind, but you get used to it (kind of).

In the fighter world, you seldom use rudder except in a slow-speed fight to get your nose around either for an aggressive maneuver or a shot. Engine failure on twin engine fighters might be another time, but heck....now they may have a system like the B-777s TAC (thrust asymmetry computer) that puts in rudder automatically for engine failure. (newer or upgraded F-15s, F-18s, F-14s?)

You say you want to know which fighters or fighter-types land like this -- I assume all the high-swept fighters land in a crab -- same aerodynamic profile for the most part. Don't know anything about the F-22, but I imagine it's the same too.

If this has changed I'm sure someone will pipe in. Can't imagine it has. Physics controls it.

Fugawe

 

[Alin10123]

I usually do #3. I will do the crab thing all the way until short final and then i dont even think of it as a slip. I'll think "rudder points the nose down the centerline, and aileron controls drift".

 

[bubbers44]

Teaching crosswind landings is different. I always had them align the longitudinal axis of the plane with the center line and use the side slip to counteract the wind, that way your wheels were rolling with no side load on touchdown and works for any airplane. Landing the MD80 at LAS with a 30 knot crosswind meant having the cockpit over the runway edge lights when the transition to side slip in the flair to land on the center line. No normal airplane should land in a crab. Add 5 or so knots to counteract the loss of lift due to side slip when you flair. B52's probably had compensation for crab landings because they were the fighter pilot drop outs. Maybe it was just all those engines, sorry.

 

[Steve 737]

# 3 works fine in the Airbus.

 

[2Inverted]

Do what works for you and your airplane. But, keep it on the center line and on speed. Do it consistantly and it will become a habit you won't have to analyse everytime you do an approach.

 

[Fugawe]

B52's probably had compensation for crab landings because they were the fighter pilot drop outs. Maybe it was just all those engines, sorry.

Uh-oh.......you're gonna get it now! :smash:


Fugawe

 

[ksu_aviator]

Teaching crosswind landings is different. I always had them align the longitudinal axis of the plane with the center line and use the side slip to counteract the wind, ...

Huh? Let's speak student here. Use the rudder to make the wheels line up with the runway and the ailerons to keep you over the runway. Not that I don't applaud you for knowing all the fancy terms, but you sound like a flipping engineer geek. Students don't speak engineer geek.