Bad IOE experience

[flybluesurf]

I recently washed out of IOE at a well known regional on a jet. I did have some prior 121 experience, mostly in training but not a lot of line flying. The checkairman that I flew with was not very helpful to say the least. Any similar experiences and advice on bringing this issue up at an interview would be appreciated.

 

[The Drizzle]

Well, what did you get bounced for? that would determine how i'd try and spin it in an interview. good luck though.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The checkairman that I flew with was not very helpful to say the least.

I would keep this particular statement out of your next interview, try to make it into a positive by letting them know how much you have learned from the experience, and how you will utilize this experience to become a better pilot. Make something positive out of it. Cheer up dude! I know that you are pretty bothered by it right now, but it is not the end of your career by any means and in the future you will get to remember this lesson as a learning experience.

 

[AWACoff]

From my experience, IOE has been more about teaching myself how to fly a new airplane and less about an instructor teaching me. During my initial OE at Great Lakes, I flew with a guy who made a Marine cry... Not every OE person/sim instructor/ground instructor is going to be worth a hoot. That is the time when you have to buckle down even harder....heck, get pissed off...but fly that plane like you've never flown before. I'm guessing you were transitioning to your first jet. It's a kick in the pants for sure. I've flown with a couple of previous 121 guys who had only flown turboprops...everybody deals with the learning curve when going to a jet. I echo what the previous posters have said. Learn from this and move on to the next airline. Life ain't fair. You might have gotten a bad shake, you might not have. I'd rather have a training failure than a DUI to explain in my next interview.

 

[flybluesurf]

I had the same marine guy as you did at my prior airline, small world. Yes, this was my first jet. I spoke to others in my class and their experiences were a lot different. They got a lot more help and everyone had pretty much the same problems as I was having except they made it. I didn't have any issues in ground nor in the sim. I know I got the short end of the stick and that is what sucks. Yes, you are right, life ain't fair and that I learned a long time ago. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I recently washed out of IOE at a well known regional on a jet. I did have some prior 121 experience, mostly in training but not a lot of line flying. The checkairman that I flew with was not very helpful to say the least. Any similar experiences and advice on bringing this issue up at an interview would be appreciated.

Naaah, too easy.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Naaah, too easy.

I can't WAIT for the day you bust your type ride, assuming of course you are what you say you are.

 

[HughBeamont]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

 

[30West]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

There is always one or two in the bunch. As a check airman at CJ for 5 years I got the opportunity to fly with most of the pilot group at the time and there were lots of guys who could move the airplane on time and safely, but whom I wouldn't recommend for instructor positions. We had a pretty good group there for awhile until most of them like me have moved on in the last 2 years.

 

[fsworld]

I agree with the statement above about ioe being more about teaching yourself. I had two different ieo guys, the first was better than the second but neither really taught me anything. the second read a book the entire time. I looked at it as more of a supervisor making sure I was doing it right. I know training is all done in the sim but once training is done you should be able to fly the airplane with people on it. If not I think maybe its more of an issue with your instructors during training. Yeah 170 to the marker might be fast for some but again, you did it in the sim. My first flight in the actual plane was to an uncontrolled airport with one of the shortest runways we have. It was pretty but he didnt take the controls... On the same note though... If you are having issues with someone (even though training should have caught it) the ioe guy should be able to help you get through it. Sorry about what happened but look at it as a good learning experience and move on. DONT WORRY ABOUT IT, you will move on.

 

[Mr Wu]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

"Round up for safety"

 

[MalmsteenFan]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

Try 240 to the marker!!!

 

[cx747]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

Colgan was my only IOE experience thus far and it was a very bad one. I am about the easiest person to get along with and am always looking for advice & constructive criticism but when I am doing things at an acceptable level for a new hire and getting screamed at like I was an eight year old that just skipped school for the day, that is completely unacceptable. After I was done he said I did okay and signed me off, huh? Colgan is a great place once you start flying the line but I sure do pity anybody that has to do their IOE in IAH. Good luck! The captain was so degrading, I think the CP's office should surely look into monitoring IOE from the jumpseat. I have heard other stories as well...some being very good IOE experiences from helpful and friendly IOE instructors. We're flying Saabs people, not 777's, please adjust your attitude to fit the level of equipment you're flying.

Later

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Colgan was my only IOE experience thus far and it was a very bad one. I am about the easiest person to get along with and am always looking for advice & constructive criticism but when I am doing things at an acceptable level for a new hire and getting screamed at like I was an eight year old that just skipped school for the day, that is completely unacceptable. After I was done he said I did okay and signed me off, huh? Colgan is a great place once you start flying the line but I sure do pity anybody that has to do their IOE in IAH. Good luck! The captain was so degrading, I think the CP's office should surely look into monitoring IOE from the jumpseat. I have heard other stories as well...some being very good IOE experiences from helpful and friendly IOE instructors. We're flying Saabs people, not 777's, please adjust your attitude to fit the level of equipment you're flying.

Later

Why is the attitude required to fly a Saab any different than that required to fly a 777? Both require the same professionalism and good judgement. The physical size of the airplane doesn't matter.

With that said, having the IOE check airman scream at you is itself not professional or appropriate. This guy or gal needs a major adjustment in his/her instructional technique.

 

[Jolly Roger]

Try 240 to the marker!!!

No problem! The trick here is scream in at least 1000 feet low to the marker, lift the nose and you'll be configured by the glideslope. This works best at fields on a plateau. BTW, this is a joke!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I recently washed out of IOE at a well known regional on a jet. I did have some prior 121 experience, mostly in training but not a lot of line flying. The checkairman that I flew with was not very helpful to say the least. Any similar experiences and advice on bringing this issue up at an interview would be appreciated.

You only did 1 IOE trip? With 1 instructor? And then they washed you out? At XJT you would have flown with multiple instructors on at least 60 to 80 hours of IOE before a decision was made. If you were washed out after one 20 hour 4-day, that isn't right...especially if you only flew with 1 instructor.

-Neal

 

[propjockey]

No problem! The trick here is scream in at least 1000 feet low to the marker, lift the nose and you'll be configured by the glideslope. This works best at fields on a plateau. BTW, this is a joke!

248 to the marker works just fine in DEN on the 1900D with no special maneuvering required. This is not a joke.

 

[threegreen]

What's so good about 248?

 

[AWACoff]

248 is the speed the wussies use so they don't overspeed the aircraft. Real men don't care about the barber pole. j/k

AWACoff

 

[Ralgha]

I have talked to numerous FOs at Colgan over the years that have had terrible IOE experiences. Captains yelling at them for doing things "incorrectly" even though they had never been taught the "correct" way. Captains expecting 1000-hour wonders on IOE day 1 to handle getting dumped on an instrument approach to minimums, 170 to the marker.

Though you certainly don't want to make excuses in an interview, airlines do need to get rid of a lot of doosh bag training captains. How many airlines actually ask new hires / upgrades / transitions to do anonymous instructor evaluations? None that I've ever heard of.

We did after initial, reviewed the ground and sim instructors. Not IOE guys though if I remember right...maybe there was a spot for them too, can't recall.

 

[Terrain Terrain]

248 is the speed the wussies use so they don't overspeed the aircraft. Real men don't care about the barber pole. j/k

AWACoff

Please just pull the breaker next time, then there is no buzzer, and if there is no buzzer, then there is no overspeed. problem solved

 

[91100 100 set]

What's so good about 248?

So you can get to the gate 20 seconds sooner. Besides, the passengers LOVE hearing the gear going down when you're going so fast. They enjoy that big scary whooshing noise.

 

[turbinesurgeon]

Please just pull the breaker next time, then there is no buzzer, and if there is no buzzer, then there is no overspeed. problem solved

On the Saab you can switch the audio panel to Emergency and that silenced the overspeed horn, its great for CDO's and when your in the sim and want to finish early.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

I feel your pain. At many airlines, IOE Captains are simply burn-outs pimping for a few extra bones in the paycheck. Others are insecure weenies with Napolean complexes who are on a power trip, who themselves have less than stellar piloting skills.

You don't see these type of guys very often in the sim. There you may actually have to speak and forward useful information and/or technique, and teaching is not their strong point.

Some places, such as where I'm at now, require their IOE guys to teach in the sim, so it tends to weed out the REAL a$$holes, plus there is a fairly effective peer review process.

But if you get a bad guy at a regional, you're pretty much boned.

Nu

 

[Bringupthebird]

I recently washed out of IOE at a well known regional on a jet. I did have some prior 121 experience, mostly in training but not a lot of line flying. The checkairman that I flew with was not very helpful to say the least. Any similar experiences and advice on bringing this issue up at an interview would be appreciated.

Have you considered a letter to the Dir of Ops and Pres. of the airline and put forward the idea of salvaging some of their investment in training you by allowing you to be reevaluated in the sim and following a succesful evaluation be returned to the line for IOE with another check airman. Emphasize that you're the same person they thought would make a good employee when they hired you and it would be beneficial to both of you to complete training and that if you cannot pass the sim evaluation then the story will end there .

Now, if you've burned your bridge, or if you aren't telling the whole story, then none of this may apply.

 

[ohoh]

i feel your pain!!!

of all the responses looks like the previous one seems to
be most helpful. see whether you can salvage it (nothing
to lose) and if not...be positive on all future occasions.

i myself had a difficult ioe - transitioning from a light
piston twin to a jet. a barely passed (down to ok...you
better make this landing or bust). but after passing
and a few months on the line...i'm ok now.

i too found my ioe "instructor" not do too much instruction.
there are definitely more than a few tips that can make
flying easier....none of those. nice guy though.

good-luck...believe it or not you're actually more capable
than a few months ago.

good luck!

 

[Dubya]

Suck it up sally assses

Are they really "screaming" at you? I doubt it. If someone was actually "screaming" at me during training...the training would stop immediately until the issues were addressed. For those of you that think when an instructor's voice goes up a few notches because they've told you the same thing 14 times and you still aren't getting it...it's not screaming. All you momma's boys better grow some thicker skin and get over your shortcomings and mistakes.
There's always more to these "i failed and it was the instructors fault cause he's mean and yells at me" stories.

W

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Which is it Dubya?? Grow a thicker skin or talk to the instructor about it? Having been in that situation with a person like the people describe here I would go with the suggestion to talk to the instructor or better yet, talk to the instructor's manager. I screwed up by not asking for an immediate change. Next time I'll know better. As far as I'm concerned the instructor or person in charge is responsible for setting the tone. I think NuGuy put it best in describing that type of person.

Maybe everyone that washes out due to difficulty dealing with a screamer is a weenie. I think with a screamer it becomes pretty difficult to get things right all the time knowing how unpleasant it will be the second you make a mistake. Been there, done that and won't let it happen again but I sure as hell don't think I was at fault in my one lousy experience for having to deal with a Napoleonic schmuck.

Mr. I.

 

[Yodafly]

On the Saab you can switch the audio panel to Emergency and that silenced the overspeed horn, its great for CDO's and when your in the sim and want to finish early.

I learn something new everyday

 

[ratherbeflyen]

The trick here is scream in at least 1000 feet low to the marker, lift the nose and you'll be configured by the glideslope.

We used to that flying freight.... when it was vfr.

I had a miserable experience on my first jet IOE. The captain was pissed and yelling all the time. I see what people are talking about with the learn it all yourself complaint. My OE captain seemed to be at odds with doing it by the book or his way.

I got a theory about some OE captains, my captain complained to a higher power, over minor stuff, 3 times in 4 days. So, all you got to do become a OE captain is complain eneugh untill the powers that be that be learn your name.