Back in the news, "Man, we can do it, 41-it," said Cesarz

[Vladimir Lenin]

daymn, tony, when do you talk to the wife and the kids?

good, informative post, though

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Very unfortunate. These pilots didn't necessarily have to know about full stall recoveries, core lock etc......

Their judgement to deviate from the flight plan is the mistake. We are not trained to fly through thunderstorms, rather avoid them.

Finally, rogues are not new Tony Kern has published a book on pilot rogues.

I can only image how embarrassing Mr. Air Show was to the United States Air Force. A Hot Dog B-52 pilot who was allowed to operate outside of SOP and was condoned by the squadron leadership. He destroyed a B-52 and its crew.

The definition of an Air Line Pilot: PROFESSIONALS ARE SELF POLICING!

 

[TonyC]

daymn, tony, when do you talk to the wife and the kids?

I sent 'em to camp - - now I sit reserve.









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[Immelman]

Thank you Tony. I will have a read on core lockup... that's a new one for my piston-driving brain.

 

[FN FAL]

Very unfortunate. These pilots didn't necessarily have to know about full stall recoveries, core lock etc......

Their judgement to deviate from the flight plan is the mistake. We are not trained to fly through thunderstorms, rather avoid them.

Finally, rouges are not new Tony Kern has published a book on pilot rouges.

“sacré bleu!”-Blue is Sacred!

Main Entry: rouge
Pronunciation: 'rüzh, esp Southern 'rüj
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Middle French, from rouge red, from Latin rubeus reddish -- more at RUBY
1 : any of various cosmetics for coloring the cheeks or lips red
2 : a red powder consisting essentially of ferric oxide used in polishing glass, metal, or gems and as a pigment

 

[100LL... Again!]

Think about this again - - I get chills every time I try to run this through my mind. You're the Captain, but you're sitting in the right seat. It's nighttime, and the instruments in front of you are worthless. NO ENGINES ARE OPERATING, and you're descending through 10,000 feet. There are few lights on the fields of Missouri below. There is no airfield in sight. Your FO is standing behind you, having just taken off his oxygen mask and climbed out of your rightful seat, and he's waiting for you to climb out of his seat. Now, take off your oxygen mask, unstrap, and step away from the controls. The autopilot keeping the wings level and lowering the nose to maintain an airspeed now as you're standing behind the seats is probably the most intelligent piece of equipment, human or machine, on the entire airplane right now. Picture that in your mind's eye. Look up at the pilots' seats, empty. Intelligent people are supposed to be there, but the seats are empty. Look at the panel, half dark, the windscreen, full of darkness. Notice the deck angle - - the angle between your body and the floor of the airplane. Your toes are extended to keep you upright. You're leaning back as you step forward to once again occupy the seat you abdicated a half hour ago.


Now tell me how unfair the media has been.

"Rightful seat" being a figure of speech here, of course. "Assigned seat" is closer to the truth.

There is a difference between being authorized to do something and being truly qualified.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Everything I have learned about it has come from my own initiative - reading books, articles, official studies, and learning from other pilots.

If more pilots took this kind of initiative, maybe this crash would never have happened.

My favorite 'streamer likes to point out that 'hey - they passed the checkride, therefore they are qualified'!

As this accident shows, the selfeducation and self-policing (credit to Tony C) must never stop. From the sound of it, the opinions coming from a lot of low-time airline guys is that the company is responsible for telling you every last bit of info you need. If it isn't on the oral, it must not be important, right?

That type of laziness and college-kid flippant behavior leads to fatalities exactly like this one.

The time you spend bashing mesa pilots and the rjdc might be better spent actually filling your head with useful information.

You might actually someday deserve the huge salaries that you believe are due you.

 

[Nova]

Well, well. It looks like we have a little debate here. I ask you, does the engine care whether it's ISA or OAT, Celsius, Farenheit, or Kelvin?

How about reading the original statement by BluDevAv8r, it might help. BluDevAv8r was comparing OAT and ISA deviation, not OAT and ISA.

I ask you, does an engine care if it's 15 Celsius at sea level or ISA +25 at sea level? It might still be a frigid -50 Celsius at FL400 but that's ISA +20 so your engines are going to be struggling. I'd hope that you'd appriciate the difference when doing your performance calculations.

I know in our flight plans it states the ISA deviation for each altitude and it makes a difference. Ever wonder why sometimes you can't hit Mmo in cruise somedays but other days it's way too easy? With your engines taking a performance hit you might find yourself with a lot closer to the back side of that coffin corner than planned.

So when blasting along at FL370 looking at your OAT is a poor indicator of your performance penalty (unless you can do quick math) when the ISA deviation is a better indicator. Any performance chart I've seen is broken down by ISA deviation, not OAT.

 

[Dangerkitty]

If more pilots took this kind of initiative, maybe this crash would never have happened.

My favorite 'streamer likes to point out that 'hey - they passed the checkride, therefore they are qualified'!

As this accident shows, the selfeducation and self-policing (credit to Tony C) must never stop. From the sound of it, the opinions coming from a lot of low-time airline guys is that the company is responsible for telling you every last bit of info you need. If it isn't on the oral, it must not be important, right?

That type of laziness and college-kid flippant behavior leads to fatalities exactly like this one.

The time you spend bashing mesa pilots and the rjdc might be better spent actually filling your head with useful information.

You might actually someday deserve the huge salaries that you believe are due you.

Very well said 100LL, very well said.

I still can't get over the fact that this airplane was giving them every clue under the sun that it was about to stall except hitting them upside the head with a frying pan.

They talked about how slow their mach number and IAS was. They even talked about how high their AOA or deck angle was laughing about it until it was too late.

Hopefully more knowledge will come from this disaster and save lives in the future.

 

[Rogue5]

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: rouge
Pronunciation: 'rüzh, esp Southern 'rüj
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Middle French, from rouge red, from Latin rubeus reddish -- more at RUBY
1 : any of various cosmetics for coloring the cheeks or lips red
2 : a red powder consisting essentially of ferric oxide used in polishing glass, metal, or gems and as a pigment

You beat me to it!

 

[TonyC]

How about reading the original statement by BluDevAv8r, it might help.

I read it. I quoted it. I don't need help.

BluDevAv8r was comparing OAT and ISA deviation, not OAT and ISA.

I ask you, does an engine care if it's 15 Celsius at sea level or ISA +25 at sea level?

Oh, yes, it cares. It cares because the former is 15°C, and the latter is 40°C, a full 25 degrees warmer.

It might still be a frigid -50 Celsius at FL400 but that's ISA +20 so your engines are going to be struggling.

No, wrong again. ISA+20 at FL400 would be -36.50°C. It can't be BOTH -50°C and -36.50°C. That would be like trying to say it's -50°C and -33.7°F. It can't be both. (-50°C=-58°F, -36.5°C=-33.7°F).

I'd hope that you'd appriciate the difference when doing your performance calculations.

The only difference is the way it's expressed. You might be surprised to learn that the engines also don't care what language you speak when you call for a checklist.

I know in our flight plans it states the ISA deviation for each altitude and it makes a difference. Ever wonder why sometimes you can't hit Mmo in cruise somedays but other days it's way too easy? With your engines taking a performance hit you might find yourself with a lot closer to the back side of that coffin corner than planned.

Since your flight plans express the temperature in terms of ISA deviation, then that method is much handier for you. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible to make the same performance deductions given temperature expressed in degrees Kelvin.

My flight plans present temperature in terms of degrees Celsius. Funny, my airplane still flies.

So when blasting along at FL370 looking at your OAT is a poor indicator of your performance penalty (unless you can do quick math) when the ISA deviation is a better indicator. Any performance chart I've seen is broken down by ISA deviation, not OAT.

"Any performance chart I've seen" will only be meaningful when you've seen them all, or even most, or even more than you have. I'm here to tell you, friend, that they're not all that way.

When blasting along at FL370, OAT is an excellent indicator of performance to me. I don't even have to do math. For me, an ISA deviation would be a pain in the neck, because I don't carry a table in my pocket.


Like I said the first time, all the engine cares about is molecules.




I gotta ask - - where did they teach you this stuff?




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[TonyC]

"Rightful seat" being a figure of speech here, of course. "Assigned seat" is closer to the truth.

There is a difference between being authorized to do something and being truly qualified.

In this case, they were neither authorized nor qualified.





While I'm here, I might take a moment to make a correction to the picture I tried to paint above. I said, "The autopilot keeping the wings level and lowering the nose to maintain an airspeed now as you're standing behind the seats is probably the most intelligent piece of equipment, human or machine, on the entire airplane right now. Picture that in your mind's eye. Look up at the pilots' seats, empty. Intelligent people are supposed to be there, but the seats are empty. "

After studying the FDR, it would appear that the autopilot was never selected on. So, change the above to read, "The airplane is without guidance of any kind. No pilot, no machine, only the forces of nature act upon this 50-passenger glider pointed at the ground. Picture that in your mind's eye. Look up at the pilots' seats, empty. Intelligent people are supposed to be there, but the seats are empty. "






.

 

[Yank McCobb]

C'mon. Take one more crack at it. I'm willing to bet if you try that paragraph ONE more time, you can achieve the Surplus1 level of melodrama.

 

[Nova]

When blasting along at FL370, OAT is an excellent indicator of performance to me. I don't even have to do math. For me, an ISA deviation would be a pain in the neck, because I don't carry a table in my pocket.

Here are the charts from the NTSB report from the PCL CRJ manual:

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/314035.pdf

The first charts look to be the climb thrust settings required for the climb profile with the associated temperature limit in C and F degrees. The last chart is the maximum altitude capability chart (ie max performance) and notice how it is broken down by ISA deviation? By the looks of it anything with a greater than +10 ISA deviation would limit the max altitude. OAT isn't even listed.

Especially considering we fly pressure altitudes at cruise OAT is just about worthless since you don't know your exact true altitude. Do you ask for a current altimeter setting at FL350 just to see what the difference is? ISA deviation gives you a realistic picture of your performance.

Again notice that when it comes to performance that they use ISA deviation for performance. OAT is listed as limit for climb settings and I'm sure that can be tied to engine temperature limitations.

You are right, engines only care about molecules but saying that the OAT is 15 degrees means different things if you are at FL180 vs 5000'. Warm thin air is a lot different than warm dense air and that is why ISA deviation is considered.

 

[PCL_128]

ISA deviation and OAT are simply two ways of referring to the same temperature.

At S.L. ISA+0 is the same as an OAT of 15 degrees C. ISA+10 would be another way of saying 25 degrees C. It's the same number, just stated two different ways. Tony is pointing out that different airplanes use different values for the temp component. Bombardier chose to use deviation from ISA, but other manufactures could use OAT (SAT really). It isn't necessary to use ISA deviation on performance charts. Either way is equally acceptable.