BA 777 "lands short" at Heathrow

[DiamondFlyer]

Roger that. I didn't say that Captain said anything about birds, I am just curious is something could have fodd'ed out the engines, such as birds, or whatever.

When I worked at a three letter agency, we studied the possibility of someone or something fodd'ing out engines at a low level. While I'm not attempting to inject conspiracy, the scenario is curiously similar to something we predicted and even practiced.

Though this is likely mechanical/electrical/software, it sure is odd.

 

[Crossky]

Lots of conclusion jumping going on here.

First, you presume the engines failed, or were failing. There's nothing in the AAIB prelim that even hints at the engines failing. Not responsive to a thrust lever input is not the same as failing.

Second, where do you get the idea that the A/T system failed? The prelim clearly states that the A/T were calling for an appropriate increase in thrust that didn't materialize. The A/T is just a servo (or two) that moves the throttle lever to specified angle based upon the inputs from a bunch of different sources. If the power to drive the servos quits(which has not yet been proven in this case), then big deal, you just move the T/L by hand as you've always done. No A/T doesn't mean no engines.

Wth that said, an electronic glitch that impedes the ability of the engine EEC's to meter the proper amount of fuel based on the T/L angle is a different story.

Excuse me Mr. arrogant 777 systems guy, I was just asking a question, I haven't taken 777 ground school (or any Boeing for that matter). The A/T FAILED to facilitate increased thrust by the engines. The engines FAILED to produce increased thrust demanded by the A/T. I concurr that the engines could've stayed at a previous thrust level into the grass. I realize that the A/T could've not responded because of a failure somewhere else, I was asking what could have it been, and you jump all over me like I'm a Nazi.

I wasn't baiting anyone with 'fuel exhaustion' charges either. I didn't deserve your condescending response. Good day.

 

[goodgig]

It must have been someones tray table.

 

[Old School 737]

Had a line check yesterday and the check airman is friends with one of the Boeing test pilots. He said that one throttle retarded and then the other pushed up to compensate for the the other. Nothing happened and when the crew saw what was going on they tried to make a thrust correction and did not get the proper or required thrust. Said Boeing is very concerned and that it looks like the crew did everything correct and did a good job of not stalling out. Also said the fuel truck or tanks that last fueled the aircraft were being look at.

 

[Prog 2/2]

Finally got to the books and the statement in the Boeing 777 FCTM, page 1.33, dated Oct 31, 2007 says the following. Auto Throttles; "Autothrottle use is recommended during all phases of flight. When in manual flight, autotrotlte use is also recommended, however manual thrust control may be used to maintain pilot proficiency." So there you have it. Not exactly carved in stone, but pretty darn close in Boeing speak.

Hope this helps more than it hurts.

Thanks for digging that up.

It's a bit different, as you pointed out, than the Boeing 75/76 guidance.

Does it specify that the A/T's must be disconnected prior to a manual landing ? Or does the 77 mirror the Bus in that they are armed and active until touchdown?

Just curious.

 

[spg2bmd]

At least they didnt make me do a go-around... again.
PS, Speedbird sucks.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Here is the new runway at LHR specially made for BA pilots....

 

[Spooky 2]

Thanks for digging that up.

It's a bit different, as you pointed out, than the Boeing 75/76 guidance.

Does it specify that the A/T's must be disconnected prior to a manual landing ? Or does the 77 mirror the Bus in that they are armed and active until touchdown?

Just curious.

The AT's start to retard at 25' when your hand flying the airplane. The AT system disconnents when you move the reverse levers aft. Good practice calls for the PF to follow through with the appropriate hand on the thrust levers at all times during the landing procedure so as to be ready to manually override if required.

 

[poppi]

Computer system suspected in Heathrow 777 crash

experts have suggested that the simultaneous failure of both engines of the BA 777 which last week crash-landed at Heathrow must have been caused by a computer glitch, the Times reports.

 

[Spooky 2]

Computer system suspected in Heathrow 777 crash

experts have suggested that the simultaneous failure of both engines of the BA 777 which last week crash-landed at Heathrow must have been caused by a computer glitch, the Times reports.

Right.....the press is always spot on in the accident investigations. The officials might as well pack up and go home. Case closed!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Yup, I guess the Times is actually the AAIB in drag....
Spooky2 is right, send em home..."they don't need no stinkin investigation!!"

 

[embpic1]

Here is the new runway at LHR specially made for BA pilots....

With the info available it doesn't appear to be pilot error. That being said, that was damn funny..:laugh:

 

[embpic1]

I heard an interesting story about what might have caused this accident.

Supposedly, the prime minister's motorcade was on its way to the airport. Apparently they use some kind of jamming equipment. The story goes that the plane passed over the motorcade when it was on short final.

I know this story sounds far fetched but I thought I would relay it.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Here is the new runway at LHR specially made for BA pilots....

That was pretty funny.

 

[siucavflight]

Here is more pictures of the hero Captain
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2001_hero_pilot_romp.shtml

 

[Wankel7]

Here is more pictures of the hero Captain
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/2001_hero_pilot_romp.shtml

Now that is a layover!

Those BA guys know how to get down

 

[siucavflight]

Yes, I would like that job, minus the llicorice in the pooper.

 

[bubbers44]

AAIB BA38 B777 Initial Report Update 23 January 2008
Accident to a Boeing 777-236, G-YMMM, on 17 January 2008 at 1243 hrs
Initial Report Update 23 January 2008

Since the issue of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) 1st Preliminary Report on Friday 18 January 2008 at 1700 hrs, work has continued on all fronts to identify why neither engine responded to throttle lever inputs during the final approach. The 150 tonne aircraft was moved from the threshold of Runway 27L to an airport apron on Sunday evening, allowing the airport to return to normal operations.

The AAIB, sensitive to the needs of the industry including Boeing, Rolls Royce, British Airways and other Boeing 777 operators and crews, is issuing this update to provide such further factual information as is now available.

As previously reported, whilst the aircraft was stabilised on an ILS approach with the autopilot engaged, the autothrust system commanded an increase in thrust from both engines. The engines both initially responded but after about 3 seconds the thrust of the right engine reduced. Some eight seconds later the thrust reduced on the left engine to a similar level. The engines did not shut down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight idle, but less than the commanded thrust.

Recorded data indicates that an adequate fuel quantity was on board the aircraft and that the autothrottle and engine control commands were performing as expected prior to, and after, the reduction in thrust.

All possible scenarios that could explain the thrust reduction and continued lack of response of the engines to throttle lever inputs are being examined, in close cooperation with Boeing, Rolls Royce and British Airways. This work includes a detailed analysis and examination of the complete fuel flow path from the aircraft tanks to the engine fuel nozzles.

Further factual information will be released as and when available

 

[The Prussian]

The engines both initially responded but after about 3 seconds the thrust of the right engine reduced. Some eight seconds later the thrust reduced on the left engine to a similar level. The engines did not shut down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight idle, but less than the commanded thrust.

Anybody know what the viscosity of Chinese H2O is, whilst the temperature is at or below 0 degrees Celsius?

 

[bubbers44]

Just trying to get this hijacked thread out of the muck. He had a great layover that night and I envy him but he did a great job of getting that plane down with no fatalities. It looks like no pilot error was involved and he will remain the hero. I still think cold fuel was the cause. Chinese fuel probably doesn't get international monitoring. Maybe the extra cold temps aloft and the load of fuel they got didn't let them spool up properly at 1000 ft and they didn't notice it til 600 ft.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Yes I do, you're powers of deduction are quite astounding.
I did apply to BA once back in the early nineties, they sent me a very nice letter to inform me that they were only hiring from their own school in Prestwick. It all worked out, I much prefer living in the US and enjoy my position at ValuJet, as you like to call us. I assume that was some sort of veiled insult on your behalf, very original I must say, first time I've heard that one.
I am a little choosy who I enjoy a beer with and I'm afraid you would not fit the bill.
Good afternoon madam.

This post is best read while imagining the voice of Stewie Griffin from Family Guy.

 

[igneousy2]

If you did have a single engine power loss on a 777, how much altitude would you need on the approach if the operating engine was unspooled and the airplane was completely dirtied up and on-speed to arrest the resulting sink?

 

[XJohXJ]

This post is best read while imagining the voice of Stewie Griffin from Family Guy.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[XJohXJ]

I heard an interesting story about what might have caused this accident.

Supposedly, the prime minister's motorcade was on its way to the airport. Apparently they use some kind of jamming equipment. The story goes that the plane passed over the motorcade when it was on short final.

I know this story sounds far fetched but I thought I would relay it.

Maybe they ingested chemtrails!

 

[Spooky 2]

If you did have a single engine power loss on a 777, how much altitude would you need on the approach if the operating engine was unspooled and the airplane was completely dirtied up and on-speed to arrest the resulting sink?

Why would the good engine be unspooled in the first place? That's simply not the way you land an airplane like this. When you start extending the flaps the engine go to "approach idle" and inhibit that completely unpsooled power setting. The B777 will land with flaps 30, 1EO without any problem however the normal 1EO config is for flaps to be set at 20 with flaps 5 for GA just like almost all other Boeings built today.

 

[go!ng for broke]

Why would the good engine be unspooled in the first place? That's simply not the way you land an airplane like this. When you start extending the flaps the engine go to "approach idle" and inhibit that completely unpsooled power setting. The B777 will land with flaps 30, 1EO without any problem however the normal 1EO config is for flaps to be set at 20 with flaps 5 for GA just like almost all other Boeings built today.

CHECK

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This post is best read while imagining the voice of Stewie Griffin from Family Guy.

...being a huge Family Guy fan, I can appreciate that comment immensely. :beer:

 

[Britpilot]

January 24, 2008
The British Airways Boeing 777 that crash-landed at Heathrow Airport last week did not suffer a total power failure as it approached the airport, investigators said on Thursday.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch said the 777's two engines failed to deliver extra thrust as it came into land, but did not cut out completely.

In a second preliminary report, investigators said they were still trying to work out what caused the lack of thrust during the flight's final moments.

"The engines both initially responded but after about three seconds the thrust of the right engine reduced," the report said. "Some eight seconds later the thrust reduced on the left engine to a similar level.

"The engines did not shut down and both engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight idle, but less than the commanded thrust."

The reason for the lack of thrust is not yet known. The plane, which was flying on autopilot, was carrying enough fuel.

Investigators will now examine the system which takes the fuel from the tanks to the engines.

Eighteen passengers were slightly injured when BA Flight 38 from Beijing landed short of the runway last Thursday.

The plane's undercarriage was ripped off and its wings damaged after it only just cleared the perimeter fence.

(Reuters)

 

[regionaltard]

This post is best read while imagining the voice of Stewie Griffin from Family Guy.

I was thinking Austin Powers...

 

[whymeworry?]

I guess I just don't know enough about flammable liquids.

How can the landing gear pierce the fuel tanks, which reportedly had fuel in them, and not cause a fire?

I don't get it.