B757 fuel reserves

[Spooky 1]

Our holding fuel is usually accounted for in our contingency fuel, which is not accounted for in the regs. A typical fuel load would be:

TAXI - 500
TRIP BURN - 37590
IFR/ALTN FL050 - 2290
PLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 2890
UNPLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 530
RESERVE FUEL - 5000
BLOCK FUEL - 48800
MIN FUEL FOR T/O - 44880

The contingency fuels are for holding, reroutes, weather, normal flights into CVG, other ATC delays, etc.

As far as I understand, the IFR flight plan :45 minute reserve is like an FAA mandated contingency fuel. If all you had was trip fuel, alternate fuel and :45 minute reserve (121.639 minimum) and you subsequently held for :45 at your alternate after flying to your destination and shooting an approach, you'd be a glider or close to it. I think this is what you're getting at.

Okay so where have you accounted for the :45 minute reserve as combining the Plnd Contngncy @ 2890, plus the Unplnd Contngncy don't add up to the typical :45 minute burn which is typically closer to 5300/5500? Does the 5000 Reserve fuel cover this somehow? I thought that the after burning all your Taxi, Trip Burn, IFR Altn, Plnd and Unplnd fuel you still wanted to have that 5000 onboard, but it looks like you have dipped into the 5000 so as to get the full :45' burn which is more like 5300? Still a little confused as how this is put together. This obviously a Delta flight plan format. Is there a CAL/UPS/AA/UAir/UAL version we can look at?

Thanks again,

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

For those that are actually flying the B757 (Part 121) what kind of fuel reserves are you seeing when your using "no alternate" CAVU at the destination. i.e., when you shut'em at the gate what's left in the tanks. Big debate on this end, so I need to hear from the guys and gals who are doing this every day.

Thanks in adavnce,

:45 FAR RSV = 4900lbs
:15 Contingency = 1500lbs
Planned Landing = 6400 lbs (1:07 endurance at 10k racetrack)

Average fuel burn after touchdown, 300lbs 01 rollout + :06 taxi-in)

Parked at gate = 6100 lbs

Additional Contingency fuel boarded as appropriate for destination ATC, WX, or enroute deviations.

e.g. busy hub bank over airport capacity, :15 additional contingency, 1500lbs, etc. (Planned block in 6100lbs if holding does occur, or 7600lbs if no holding occurs)

 

[Spooky 1]

:45 FAR RSV = 4900lbs
:15 Contingency = 1500lbs
Planned Landing = 6400 lbs (1:07 endurance at 10k racetrack)

Average fuel burn after touchdown, 300lbs 01 rollout + :06 taxi-in)

Parked at gate = 6100 lbs

Additional Contingency fuel boarded as appropriate for destination ATC, WX, or enroute deviations.

e.g. busy hub bank over airport capacity, :15 additional contingency, 1500lbs, etc. (Planned block in 6100lbs if holding does occur, or 7600lbs if no holding occurs)

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

If unforseen holding occurs, the flt that was orig pland to land w/ 6400lbs, will land with less than 6400lbs or 1:00 of fuel, that was planned for.

Each situation is unique; Are these large hub arpts that you are flying Part 125 into? With the requirement to carry an alternate into a CAVOK station, I'd think the regulatory compliance issue, of carrying the closest ALTN available would be useful.

Are you trying to determine, if FAR 45 RSV + ALTN fuel is a legal Min. Tkoff fuel?
2k fuel for 100nm ALTN + FAR RSV 5k + 30k burn = 37k at tkoff?

Departure arpt VFR, no dlays
Enroute, no wx, Arrival arpt, VFR, no forseeable dlays, thinking DSM, MCI, RDU, TPA, PDX, CVG, LAS, etc.

E-fuel :30 of endurance, based on ac fuel flow. E.g. 10k racetrack, vs. 1500' pattern w/ a gear &/or flaps hanging out. One is around 3k, the other might be 4k, based on wt/temp/alt, etc.

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

Spooky, I just re-read what you asked.

No, for planned :15 min holds. The load would be :15 hold fuel, +:15 contingency + FAR 45 rsv.

So, you would be planned to land with around 3k of contingency + 4.9 FAR, so 7.9k. If the holding that was planned, really did occur, then still ldg w/ around 6.2k or about 60min of fuel at holding FF.

 

[snow-back]

Okay so where have you accounted for the :45 minute reserve as combining the Plnd Contngncy @ 2890, plus the Unplnd Contngncy don't add up to the typical :45 minute burn which is typically closer to 5300/5500? Does the 5000 Reserve fuel cover this somehow? I thought that the after burning all your Taxi, Trip Burn, IFR Altn, Plnd and Unplnd fuel you still wanted to have that 5000 onboard, but it looks like you have dipped into the 5000 so as to get the full :45' burn which is more like 5300? Still a little confused as how this is put together. This obviously a Delta flight plan format. Is there a CAL/UPS/AA/UAir/UAL version we can look at?

Thanks again,

Sorry. The :45 minute reserve as required by the FARs is listed as "reserve fuel" in the amount of 5000 lbs. This is the legal requirement for IFR reserve fuel only. DALs contingency fuel is seperate and not required by regs. It's simply a buffer that takes into consideration any anticipated and un-anticipated delays.

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky, I just re-read what you asked.

No, for planned :15 min holds. The load would be :15 hold fuel, +:15 contingency + FAR 45 rsv.

So, you would be planned to land with around 3k of contingency + 4.9 FAR, so 7.9k. If the holding that was planned, really did occur, then still ldg w/ around 6.2k or about 60min of fuel at holding FF.

I appreciate your imput to this discussion. The purpose of the original question was to gauge where the Part 121 operators were at regarding typical landing fuel quanities in todays high fuel cost environment. Part 125 operators are typically "self dispatched" and do not have flight following like those in the 121 end of the business. Make for some interesting flight planning sessions. We operate a B757 on a Part 125/91 exemption and some of our flights are in excess of 12 hours which can have you getting to your destination fairly light on fuel. The pure 125 airplane does not have the tanks so it looks a lot like the typical B757 airliner regarding both mission and performance limitations as far as fuel requirements. The fact that we cannot dispatch without an alternate causes us to carry excess fuel and since it is not uncommon pay over $3.00 per gallon in some places, we need to look for every opportunity to skin the cat back a little when safety will allow.

Anyone else who would like to offer an opinion or experience with this subject. please jump in. No hijacking allowed, please.

 

[Spooky 1]

Sorry. The :45 minute reserve as required by the FARs is listed as "reserve fuel" in the amount of 5000 lbs. This is the legal requirement for IFR reserve fuel only. DALs contingency fuel is seperate and not required by regs. It's simply a buffer that takes into consideration any anticipated and un-anticipated delays.[/QUOTE

Okay next question. How do you load the FMS, be it the PIP or the Pegasus versions? i.e., what do you put in the reserve box and what does that number represent?

Again, I thank you.

 

[snow-back]

Sorry. The :45 minute reserve as required by the FARs is listed as "reserve fuel" in the amount of 5000 lbs. This is the legal requirement for IFR reserve fuel only. DALs contingency fuel is seperate and not required by regs. It's simply a buffer that takes into consideration any anticipated and un-anticipated delays.[/QUOTE

Okay next question. How do you load the FMS, be it the PIP or the Pegasus versions? i.e., what do you put in the reserve box and what does that number represent?

Again, I thank you.

On the reserve fuel line in the FMS, we input IFR Reserve fuel which is usually around 5000 lbs plus any alternate fuel if required.

This way, for example, if we're inbound to ATL and get a hold at MACEY, we put it in the FMS, and it will tell us how much holding time we have available. The FMS does this by knowing 1) what our reserve and alternate fuel requirement is, 2) How much fuel we have on board at that moment, 3) what our fuel burn is from our position in the hold, to MACEY, then to ATL, shoot an approach, go missed and fly an approach at our alternate.

Theoretically, if we got to bingo fuel in our hold, flew to ATL and went missed, proceeded to our alternate and landed, we would have 5000 lbs of fuel at block in.

This is like a checkride.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

This is like a checkride.

Oh no. This is MUCH better. This is ANONYMOUS!

 

[mach78]

I seldom question the fuel load dispatch gives me. If it's not enough I land short or divert if not enough to hold and that teaches them a stronger lesson than argueing with them on the phone at the departure point.


I remember a story an old time EAL pilot told me. The hot weather at LGA (before the runway got lengthened some) was preventing a fuel load on his 727 for much reserve, etc at MIA with possible TRWs forecast. He wanted a flag fuel stop enroute or he wasn't going. Chief pilot got involved ...they got a reserve guy to come out and fly the trip. The original Captain hung around to see who was cutting his legs off from under him. The new Captain walks in, winks at him, and proceeds to the airplane and off he goes. The new Captain called dispatch enroute saying he wouldn't have enough fuel to safely continue to MIA and landed short and got more fuel.

 

[Spooky 1]

I seldom question the fuel load dispatch gives me. If it's not enough I land short or divert if not enough to hold and that teaches them a stronger lesson than argueing with them on the phone at the departure point.


I remember a story an old time EAL pilot told me. The hot weather at LGA (before the runway got lengthened some) was preventing a fuel load on his 727 for much reserve, etc at MIA with possible TRWs forecast. He wanted a flag fuel stop enroute or he wasn't going. Chief pilot got involved ...they got a reserve guy to come out and fly the trip. The original Captain hung around to see who was cutting his legs off from under him. The new Captain walks in, winks at him, and proceeds to the airplane and off he goes. The new Captain called dispatch enroute saying he wouldn't have enough fuel to safely continue to MIA and landed short and got more fuel.

mach78, maybe you missed the earlier content which indicated we are self dispatched, i.e., we don't use dispatchers so its soley our responsibility to make sure that we operate safely, and economically as well. No one here has ever suggested anything different and I might add, since we know our principals well, we don't try any one-upsmanship sh^t on the bosses. We'll let that kind of conduct remain the domain of the skeds.