B757 fuel reserves

[Spooky 1]

For those that are actually flying the B757 (Part 121) what kind of fuel reserves are you seeing when your using "no alternate" CAVU at the destination. i.e., when you shut'em at the gate what's left in the tanks. Big debate on this end, so I need to hear from the guys and gals who are doing this every day.

Thanks in adavnce,

 

[rudderdog]

7000#

 

[Capt.LongThrust]

like to have 8 or 9. i have seen a dispatch with 6, no thanks. not much left after a go around in that situation.

 

[ATA For Now!]

Dispatch tries 6...but 7-8 is more realistic.

 

[snow-back]

The :45 minute fuel is 5000 lbs +/- a couple of hundred. At DAL, we typically block in with about 7-8000 lbs., however, the company has been reducing our contingency fuel, so we're blocking in with closer to 7000 lbs lately. We just started using an FAA exemption for dispatch that changes the domestic IFR fuel requirement. Instead of needing an IFR alternate when destination weather is within the 1,2,3 parameters we now use a 1,1,2 rule (1 hour before/after, 1000 ft cigs, 2 miles vis).

Exemption 8575 (“1-1-2 Rule”) - with certain restrictions
No alternate airport is required if for 1 hour before and 1 hour after the
estimated time of arrival at the destination airport, the appropriate weather
reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate:
• The ceiling will be at least 1,000 feet above the airport elevation; and
• Visibility will be at least 2 miles.

 

[Spooky 1]

Okay I see where you are coming from with this scenario. So lets take a look at the following. This time we will use an alternate.

Fuel to destination: 35000
Fuel to alternate 4000
45" hold 5500

I seem to recall that Delta's policy is that 5000 is considered "Min Fuel" and 3500 is considered "Emergency Fuel" both based upon certain perfromance parameters in the event of missed approaches. So looking at the above fuel load would you expect to still have a minimum fuel onboard of 5000 after you had exhausted the 4000 for the diversion and the 5500 for the 45 minute hold, or would you have build that 5000 "min Fuel" into some other part of the flight plan? In other words if you held for the 45" and then diverted, where is the remaining fuel at?

 

[rvsm410]

1,1,2 rule??? since I have been away from dispatching currently I was unaware of this new exemption, could you shed some light on what a company must have to get this exemption...just form my own FYI. maybe a reg number reference..

thanks

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Exemption 8575 (“1-1-2 Rule”) - with certain restrictions
No alternate airport is required if for 1 hour before and 1 hour after the
estimated time of arrival at the destination airport, the appropriate weather
reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate:
• The ceiling will be at least 1,000 feet above the airport elevation; and
• Visibility will be at least 2 miles.

Never heard of this particular exemption, could you elaborate on the restrictions?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

XJ also can operate under that exemption.

 

[Boeingman]

What they want to plan you with a FOD amount and what you typically end up with varies (obviously).

On my paperwork on a CAVU day going into the busier airports I don't want to see a pound less than 8,000 on the paperwork. Especially for Newark.

If you're new on the airplane always add a little more in your planning or the comfort factor. Changing types takes a while to get a good feel for low altitude burn. Going to the 75 from a smaller aircraft can really open your eyes with the increased burn.

 

[Boeingman]

Okay I see where you are coming from with this scenario. So lets take a look at the following. This time we will use an alternate.

Fuel to destination: 35000
Fuel to alternate 4000
45" hold 5500

I seem to recall that Delta's policy is that 5000 is considered "Min Fuel" and 3500 is considered "Emergency Fuel" both based upon certain perfromance parameters in the event of missed approaches. So looking at the above fuel load would you expect to still have a minimum fuel onboard of 5000 after you had exhausted the 4000 for the diversion and the 5500 for the 45 minute hold, or would you have build that 5000 "min Fuel" into some other part of the flight plan? In other words if you held for the 45" and then diverted, where is the remaining fuel at?

Spooky...just remember to plan after your worst case scenario to never let yourself go below a bingo fuel amount and arrive at either diversion or planned field (considering diversions holds etc.) with at least 7 - 8K in fuel for the 757

 

[snow-back]

Never heard of this particular exemption, could you elaborate on the restrictions?

Flight Operations Bulletin
Subject: Exemption 8575
Background
The long-standing domestic IFR/NO ALTN criteria (the “1-2-3 rule:” within +/- 1
hour of ETA, a reported or forecast ceiling of at least 2000 feet and a visibility of
at least 3 miles) predates many advancements in aircraft/airport approach
technology, pilot/dispatcher training, weather forecasting/monitoring and other
dispatch technologies.
Recognizing the modern capabilities of Delta's fleet and dispatch operations,
the FAA has granted Delta conditional relief from the above criteria in the form
of Exemption 8575. Under the conditions and limitations listed below, the use of
Exemption 8575 can begin on August 15th.
Exemption 8575 (“1-1-2 Rule”)
No alternate airport is required if for 1 hour before and 1 hour after the
estimated time of arrival at the destination airport, the appropriate weather
reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate:
• The ceiling will be at least 1,000 feet above the airport elevation; and
• Visibility will be at least 2 miles.
Limitations
• When dispatching under Exemption 8575:
– The destination airport must have an operational CAT II ILS approach for
an anticipated landing runway; and
– The aircraft must be CAT II capable; and
– The flight crew must be authorized to conduct the approach.
• Dispatch is not permitted under Exemption 8575 at any airport where
thunderstorms are forecast in either the main body of a weather forecast or in
the remarks section of the forecast or reported between 1 hour before to
1 hour after the estimated time of arrival.
• Use of this exemption is limited to airports in the contiguous United States.
• A dispatcher remark must be issued on the release advising, “Flight
dispatched under Exemption 8575.”
Note: After dispatch if any of these conditions change, the flight may proceed
provided the Captain and Dispatcher agree that current conditions would not
preclude a safe landing.
Number: 05-07
Subject: Exemption 8575
Date: August 15, 2005 Page: 2 of 2
Conclusion
The use of Exemption 8575 will allow Delta to take further advantage of modern
OCC and flight technologies to reduce fuel expense while maintaining a high
margin of safety. The exemption will guarantee at dispatch there will be at least
900 feet and 1 3/4 miles visibility buffer between approach minimum and
forecast conditions.
Feedback
Pilots flying under Exemption 8575 are encouraged to provide feedback. The
Captain should contact the Dispatcher with any immediate operational
concerns. All issues can be subsequently addressed via a COR under the
category “Aircraft.”
The full text of FAA Exemption No. 8575 is available on the Deltanet under “Pilot
Tools.”
FOM Incorporation
The information in this bulletin will be incorporated into the FOM during the next
revision cycle (Revision 22, December 1, 2005).

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky...just remember to plan after your worst case scenario to never let yourself go below a bingo fuel amount and arrive at either diversion or planned field (considering diversions holds etc.) with at least 7 - 8K in fuel for the 757

Boeingman, your missing my question. Of course I would not plan to wind up anywhere with less than say 8000 just to toss out a figure. I am looking at how we/you would build a flight plan from scratch in my "alternate" scenario as described above. Are you or your dispatch building the flight plan and assumming that 5000 pounds represents the min FOB after you have exhausted all the fuel for the diversion as well as the hold time? A little point of order here in that our Part 125 OpSpecs makes no allowance for IFR no alternate. In other words it can be clear and a million and we still need an alternate so consequently we find ourselves landing with exceesive amounts of fuel on occassion. Looking for other operators flight planning protocals so as to minimize landing with 12000 when 8000 would have been plenty. I know ther is no such thing as to much fuel so lets get by that one for now.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts,

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman Are you or your dispatch building the flight plan and assumming that 5000 pounds represents the min FOB after you have exhausted all the fuel for the diversion as well as the hold time?


A little point of order here in that our Part 125 OpSpecs makes no allowance for IFR no alternate. In other words it can be clear and a million and we still need an alternate so consequently we find ourselves landing with exceesive amounts of fuel on occassion. Looking for other operators flight planning protocals so as to minimize landing with 12000 when 8000 would have been plenty. I know ther is no such thing as to much fuel so lets get by that one for now.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts,

Sorry about that....late night. After I read that reply to you it did sound elementary, But the above answer is yes in your example of the 5k (except I plan on 8-9 at our hubs) 5 in the tanks at any destination (alt or planned) is very light in my book.

In your example our flt plan would look like this:

Fuel to destination = 35,000
Fuel to alternate = 4,000
Fuel for hold (contingency 5,500
Res. Fuel (45 minutes) 8,000 (9,000 for EWR)

Total fob @ Brake release 52,500

I see what you are saying now about the p125 ops specs. In your case since an alt is always required I think it is going to be the nature of the beast carrying more fuel than 121 requirements. Although I am not familiar with ops under p. 125

I hope that helps...or made sense.

 

[snow-back]

Okay I see where you are coming from with this scenario. So lets take a look at the following. This time we will use an alternate.

Fuel to destination: 35000
Fuel to alternate 4000
45" hold 5500

I seem to recall that Delta's policy is that 5000 is considered "Min Fuel" and 3500 is considered "Emergency Fuel" both based upon certain perfromance parameters in the event of missed approaches. So looking at the above fuel load would you expect to still have a minimum fuel onboard of 5000 after you had exhausted the 4000 for the diversion and the 5500 for the 45 minute hold, or would you have build that 5000 "min Fuel" into some other part of the flight plan? In other words if you held for the 45" and then diverted, where is the remaining fuel at?

Our holding fuel is usually accounted for in our contingency fuel, which is not accounted for in the regs. A typical fuel load would be:

TAXI - 500
TRIP BURN - 37590
IFR/ALTN FL050 - 2290
PLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 2890
UNPLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 530
RESERVE FUEL - 5000
BLOCK FUEL - 48800
MIN FUEL FOR T/O - 44880

The contingency fuels are for holding, reroutes, weather, normal flights into CVG, other ATC delays, etc.

As far as I understand, the IFR flight plan :45 minute reserve is like an FAA mandated contingency fuel. If all you had was trip fuel, alternate fuel and :45 minute reserve (121.639 minimum) and you subsequently held for :45 at your alternate after flying to your destination and shooting an approach, you'd be a glider or close to it. I think this is what you're getting at.

 

[Spooky 1]

Our holding fuel is usually accounted for in our contingency fuel, which is not accounted for in the regs. A typical fuel load would be:

TAXI - 500
TRIP BURN - 37590
IFR/ALTN FL050 - 2290
PLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 2890
UNPLND CNTNGNCY FUEL - 530
RESERVE FUEL - 5000
BLOCK FUEL - 48800
MIN FUEL FOR T/O - 44880

The contingency fuels are for holding, reroutes, weather, normal flights into CVG, other ATC delays, etc.

As far as I understand, the IFR flight plan :45 minute reserve is like an FAA mandated contingency fuel. If all you had was trip fuel, alternate fuel and :45 minute reserve (121.639 minimum) and you subsequently held for :45 at your alternate after flying to your destination and shooting an approach, you'd be a glider or close to it. I think this is what you're getting at.

Okay so where have you accounted for the :45 minute reserve as combining the Plnd Contngncy @ 2890, plus the Unplnd Contngncy don't add up to the typical :45 minute burn which is typically closer to 5300/5500? Does the 5000 Reserve fuel cover this somehow? I thought that the after burning all your Taxi, Trip Burn, IFR Altn, Plnd and Unplnd fuel you still wanted to have that 5000 onboard, but it looks like you have dipped into the 5000 so as to get the full :45' burn which is more like 5300? Still a little confused as how this is put together. This obviously a Delta flight plan format. Is there a CAL/UPS/AA/UAir/UAL version we can look at?

Thanks again,

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

For those that are actually flying the B757 (Part 121) what kind of fuel reserves are you seeing when your using "no alternate" CAVU at the destination. i.e., when you shut'em at the gate what's left in the tanks. Big debate on this end, so I need to hear from the guys and gals who are doing this every day.

Thanks in adavnce,

:45 FAR RSV = 4900lbs
:15 Contingency = 1500lbs
Planned Landing = 6400 lbs (1:07 endurance at 10k racetrack)

Average fuel burn after touchdown, 300lbs 01 rollout + :06 taxi-in)

Parked at gate = 6100 lbs

Additional Contingency fuel boarded as appropriate for destination ATC, WX, or enroute deviations.

e.g. busy hub bank over airport capacity, :15 additional contingency, 1500lbs, etc. (Planned block in 6100lbs if holding does occur, or 7600lbs if no holding occurs)

 

[Spooky 1]

:45 FAR RSV = 4900lbs
:15 Contingency = 1500lbs
Planned Landing = 6400 lbs (1:07 endurance at 10k racetrack)

Average fuel burn after touchdown, 300lbs 01 rollout + :06 taxi-in)

Parked at gate = 6100 lbs

Additional Contingency fuel boarded as appropriate for destination ATC, WX, or enroute deviations.

e.g. busy hub bank over airport capacity, :15 additional contingency, 1500lbs, etc. (Planned block in 6100lbs if holding does occur, or 7600lbs if no holding occurs)

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

If unforseen holding occurs, the flt that was orig pland to land w/ 6400lbs, will land with less than 6400lbs or 1:00 of fuel, that was planned for.

Each situation is unique; Are these large hub arpts that you are flying Part 125 into? With the requirement to carry an alternate into a CAVOK station, I'd think the regulatory compliance issue, of carrying the closest ALTN available would be useful.

Are you trying to determine, if FAR 45 RSV + ALTN fuel is a legal Min. Tkoff fuel?
2k fuel for 100nm ALTN + FAR RSV 5k + 30k burn = 37k at tkoff?

Departure arpt VFR, no dlays
Enroute, no wx, Arrival arpt, VFR, no forseeable dlays, thinking DSM, MCI, RDU, TPA, PDX, CVG, LAS, etc.

E-fuel :30 of endurance, based on ac fuel flow. E.g. 10k racetrack, vs. 1500' pattern w/ a gear &/or flaps hanging out. One is around 3k, the other might be 4k, based on wt/temp/alt, etc.

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

Okay, so if any holding occurs, you will be landing something less than the 4900 pounds that you had planned for. Lets say you held for 15 minutes you would have burned around 1700 pounds. Are you then prepared to land with 4900 pounds or do I have this plan wrong? I assume that probably have a "min" fuel and an "Emerg." fuel number in your manuals somehwhere?

Spooky, I just re-read what you asked.

No, for planned :15 min holds. The load would be :15 hold fuel, +:15 contingency + FAR 45 rsv.

So, you would be planned to land with around 3k of contingency + 4.9 FAR, so 7.9k. If the holding that was planned, really did occur, then still ldg w/ around 6.2k or about 60min of fuel at holding FF.