AWAC Pilots Get Hosed - Thanks ALPA

[John Pennekamp]

I have no idea what this is about, but why is it that everyone blames ALPA whenever things don't go their way.

For AWAC and Us Air pilots... when you go to an arbitrator, you go in knowing that you are rolling the dice. Take what you got and quit whining. If you wanted a sure thing, you shouldn't have gone to arbitration! You made your bed, now lie in it!

 

[ualdriver]

I have no idea what this is about, but why is it that everyone blames ALPA whenever things don't go their way.

For AWAC and Us Air pilots... when you go to an arbitrator, you go in knowing that you are rolling the dice. Take what you got and quit whining. If you wanted a sure thing, you shouldn't have gone to arbitration! You made your bed, now lie in it!

John,

One of the rare times I'll have to disagree with you concerning the AWAC guys. They got screwed, the arbitrator sided with them, and they are being forced to go to arbitration to get to get the back pay that they deserve. Their management is dragging their feet because they know they are going to owe their pilots significant $$ due to arbitrator's original decision.

The guy that started this post was a misinformed idiot who somehow believes that ALPA told the arbitrator to rule the way he did or some other ridiculous notion. It wasn't even worth addressing as he was so far out in left field.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The guy that started this post was a misinformed idiot who somehow believes that ALPA told the arbitrator to rule the way he did or some other ridiculous notion. It wasn't even worth addressing as he was so far out in left field.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

 

[Skyguy]

Not ALPA’s fault. Ask yourself who sets the arbitration process? How is this process beneficial to the pilots? Its NOT! Did ALPA hire any outside experts to present evidence to Holden? NO! ALPA keeps it in house to save them money not you. Was there any investigation into Untied side of the story? NO, this would cost money. Do you think the ALPA attorneys, on a guaranteed salary, have anything at stake compared to an outside attorney with a private law practice? I doubt it. I bet they are great lawyers, but they have little at stake. Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator? What is his record for the pilots in the past, ZERO! Was there any investigation to the reality of the Sub-Chapter “S” corporation’s financials? NO! They just accepted the face value of the report given by who else……. AWAC. So the owners lied to employees to get the concessions, why would they not lie in the arbitration, because they took an oath? Get real, they did just what they wanted, and stole that money from the employees and had a better Christmas than any of its hard working, cross country moving, dedicated professional that allow it to operate and make them rich.

Just check the internet. AWAC ended up with 8.3 Million shares of USAir at 15.00 a share. Plus one seat on the board. AWAC EMPLOYEES GOT HOSED. Before anything else happens, someone better figure out how to find the lies, uncover them and vacate this binding arbitration. This is not going to happen under ALPA.

 

[BoilerUP]

So much ignorance, so little time (or desire)...

I don't know how our hard-working Grievance volunteers or Carl Fleming keep doing what they're doing when they read posts like this...

 

[rightrudder]

We would not be in the position we are now in if our own union leaders and the ALPA attorney had done due diligence when it came to implementing the concessions. The concessions were due to go into effect once we had a new long-term agreement with UAL.

The company said in Oct. 2003, okay, our new agreement is now in effect. The union and ALPA attorney said, show us proof. Company said we can't, it's confidential, just trust us. Union reps and ALPA attorney said "OK, we'll trust you".

Not a good move.

It's all a moot point now, but I do feel let down by our reps and the ALPA attorney for allowing the concessions to be implemented without proper proof. If they had, we would not have gone down this road.

 

[Grinder10]

I didn't realize an arbitrator's decision could go to arbitration. Where does it end?

 

[sweptback]

Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator?

The process is a little more complicated than that... both the company and union have a say.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love a good ALPA bash session as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't blame the loss of this arbitration on ALPA..... The blame goes to the continued competition within a brand for flying due to a complete failure of ALPA to control the flying...........

Place the blame where it belongs..... This is much more an ALPA national issue then a local failure......

 

[AWACoff]

Arbitrator Holden ruled FOR the pilot group in a grievance around 7 or 8 years ago, I believe. The arbitrator mentioned that there was no guarantee that we would have continued to have the bases or A/C we had while with United. That is true. There was also no guarantee that we wouldn't have been flying 777s for United. Both statements are ridiculous. The 146s were moneymaking machines for United. DEN-ASE was one of the most profitable domestic routes for them. Look at the disaster that is now DEN-ASE for United. United wanted those 146s but the owners of AWAC made is joke of the bid just so United would walk away from the 146s. The most important thing is that the union ensures that all parties affected are given a fair and equitable share of the remedy.

John Pennekamp, you said it best. You have NO idea what this is about. We haven't gotten anything yet. That is what arbitration is all about. Deciding who gets what. There is no bed to lie in yet. Here's some advice for you. It is better for people to think you're an idiot than to remove all doubt by typing out your azz on the internet.

Not ALPA’s fault. Ask yourself who sets the arbitration process? How is this process beneficial to the pilots? Its NOT! Did ALPA hire any outside experts to present evidence to Holden? NO! ALPA keeps it in house to save them money not you. Was there any investigation into Untied side of the story? NO, this would cost money. Do you think the ALPA attorneys, on a guaranteed salary, have anything at stake compared to an outside attorney with a private law practice? I doubt it. I bet they are great lawyers, but they have little at stake. Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator? What is his record for the pilots in the past, ZERO! Was there any investigation to the reality of the Sub-Chapter “S” corporation’s financials? NO! They just accepted the face value of the report given by who else……. AWAC. So the owners lied to employees to get the concessions, why would they not lie in the arbitration, because they took an oath? Get real, they did just what they wanted, and stole that money from the employees and had a better Christmas than any of its hard working, cross country moving, dedicated professional that allow it to operate and make them rich.

Just check the internet. AWAC ended up with 8.3 Million shares of USAir at 15.00 a share. Plus one seat on the board. AWAC EMPLOYEES GOT HOSED. Before anything else happens, someone better figure out how to find the lies, uncover them and vacate this binding arbitration. This is not going to happen under ALPA.

 

[Skyguy]

ualdriver

As far as being a “misinformed idiot”, makes me believe that you are not an UAL pilot at all. I find it hard to believe that one of my brother/sister union members would stoop to name calling with so little information or no dog in the fight. I on the other hand, have a copy of the Arbitrator’s decision in hand and have read it, more than once! I also attended the road-shows, from the very beginining in May 2003 where the ALPA attorney, infront of all the pilots, state emphatically, that she had been allowed to see AWAC’s books at the time. And the TA was necessary to remain flying and profitable for the owners. In exchange, we would have years of job security with United. The owners had a reported 100+ million dollars in profits that year. Not bad for the six, yes only six owners and ZERO share holders. I also have been informed and up-dated with each and every development of this situation as they have occurred. So misinformed really doesn't work here.
I also don’t know of even one pilot that has won in arbitration with Holden at the table. Although I know some fellow pilots that have lost and the company personnel were found to be telling un-truths and proven un-truths during the hearing, that the arbitrator did not take into account. Almost 2000 present and former ALPA/AWAC pilots are affected by this situation. A majority of which, don’t earn anywhere near what a main-line pilot makes, but they do deserve to be paid what is due them.
God's speed to my fraternal union family.

 

[Lampshade]

I think we need some context here:

1. AWAC pilots have won the arbitration.

2. AWAC pilots asked for a return to 2001 contract and was rejected by the arbitrator. (no surprise)

3. AWAC pilots will receive a damages settlement ranging from $1-$30,000,000 (thinking 8 mil)

4. The MEC failed to manage expectations, that is why some people are flying off the handle.

 

[BoilerUP]

4. The MEC failed to manage expectations, that is why some people are flying off the handle.

IN MY OPINION I don't think this is the case.

I think the MEC was put in the untenable position where they HAD to take the company to arbitration; "politically" negotiation was not an option.

Any negotiated remedy that didn't include full back pay and a return to CBA 2001 for every single pilot affected would have been unacceptable to the pilot group, and everybody knows ATW wasn't willing to do that. The pilot group wouldn't have tolerated the MEC negotiating out pilots no longer on property or those who were hired under the 2003 CBA; doing so would have either opened up a bunch of legal liability or permanently fractured the pilot group's unity.

Between a rock and a hard place, I don't have any issues with how the MEC handled this issue. I think certain folks within the pilot group (past and present) didn't have reasonable expectations themselves for a remedy...but I also think nobody expected the arbitrator to roll over like he did in his "explanation".

 

[Lampshade]

The full back pay is a reasonable demand and you may get it but the return to the 2001 CBA was never in the cards. Why? Because the pilots traded concessions for long term stability (employment, not domiciles) and they received just that but with USAirways instead. The arbitrator basically said it was a moot point between United or USAirways, you ended up where you wanted to be with a long term employment agreement. He was never going to give you both a long term contract and the 2001 CBA because the company breached the "fully effective" portion of the LOA. "The law abhors a forfeiture" was mentioned by the arbitrator which states:

A FORFEITURE is a total loss of a right or a thing because of the failure to do something as required. Neither will equity disregard a contract provision that was fairly bargained. Generally it is assumed that a party who does most of what is required in a business contract and does it in a reasonable way, should not be penalized for the violation of a minor technicality.

The MEC asked for 2001 CBA, back pay and interest, basically everything, which what they are suppose to do. The MEC has lawyers that can tell them the odds of getting all that and I'm sure they had a good idea that they wouldn't. So managing expectations to the pilot group could have been better thats all.

Look at the USAir/AWA arbitration, basically the same thing. The USAir MEC told their pilot group they were getting DOH even when the arbitrator said they needed to change there position, they didn't and the rest is history. They didn't manage the expectations when they knew in advance they wouldn't get what they were asking for, and the east pilots are shocked by an out come that was pretty much known in advance by their MEC, sad but true.

 

[DiverDriver]

The arbitrator ruled that ALPA did not file in a timely manner and THAT is why he was not returning us to the 2001 contract.