AWAC Pilots Get Hosed - Thanks ALPA

[Skyguy]

Therefore, after having considered the evidence and arguments of the parties, the System Board decides that there shall be no return to the 2001 pilot agreement. The parties shall have 45 days within which to resolve the monetary damages issue, and in the absence of resolution of such issue within a 45 day period commencing from the date of this decision, the System Board shall resolve such issue.

Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.

Impartial Chairman (Ha,ha,ha,ha)​

 

[BoilerUP]

Ain't ALPA's fault...

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Therefore, after having considered the evidence and arguments of the parties, the System Board decides that there shall be no return to the 2001 pilot agreement. The parties shall have 45 days within which to resolve the monetary damages issue, and in the absence of resolution of such issue within a 45 day period commencing from the date of this decision, the System Board shall resolve such issue.

Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.

Impartial Chairman (Ha,ha,ha,ha)​

If you really thought we were going to snap back to 2001, you were dreaming. It would have been great but it was so unlikely, no one should have been surprised.

The fact that this spineless jerkwad is too pu$$y to hand down a monetary settlement is where we are really going to get screwed.

 

[ualdriver]

Therefore, after having considered the evidence and arguments of the parties, the System Board decides that there shall be no return to the 2001 pilot agreement. The parties shall have 45 days within which to resolve the monetary damages issue, and in the absence of resolution of such issue within a 45 day period commencing from the date of this decision, the System Board shall resolve such issue.

Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.​

Impartial Chairman (Ha,ha,ha,ha)​

What are the details? The last I heard, the AWAC guys won a legal grievance against the company and were award monetary compensation due to the paycut they had to take in order to secure UAL flying- flying that never came. What is all this about? And did you guys get your money yet?

 

[AWACoff]

The arbitrator has been paid off. His J.O.B. is to MAKE A DECISION!!! This moron would have crashed long ago if he was a pilot. Now we get to wait another 45 days for the company to say "screw off, we ain't paying you nuthin' " while the union says "we want to be made 100% whole". Then you have 90 days to file legal briefs and another 6 months for this complete doooouchebag of an arbitrator to make his decision. The pilot group has lost no matter what because even if we were made whole, we still lost the use of that money. It doesn't take any money skills whatsoever to invest money and get a return higher than statutory interest. Somebody has been paid off here. Obviously it's not the pilots.

 

[dojetdriver]

Was that guy Judge Wedhoff is disguise?

 

[rightrudder]

What are the details? The last I heard, the AWAC guys won a legal grievance against the company and were award monetary compensation due to the paycut they had to take in order to secure UAL flying- flying that never came. What is all this about? And did you guys get your money yet?

No, we have not received any money. We won the grievance, problem is the arbitrator did not want issue an award. He wanted the union and company to try to mutually negotiate a settlement and a timetable for that was set. There was no success at a settlement, so hearings were conducted by arbitrator to reach a decision on award.

Here we are, 11 months after we won the grievance, and not one bit closer to being compensated.

Today, his decision was announced: He decided that we should not get our pre-concessionary contract back, and AGAIN asked us to work with management to work out a settlement.

This has become a freaking joke. He was paid by us to make a decision, and he passed the buck AGAIN!

 

[J and E's Daddy]

When it comes to arbitrators and their decisions, it's very political. Mr Holden didn't have the balls to render any decision on awards. He wants the pilot group and the company to work it out. If he made a decision either way, he runs the risk of his services no longer being desired by one side or the other. I believe arbitrators are chosen by mutual agreement on both sides. If he gets a reputation of favoring one or the other, or making poor decisions, then he knows he won't be used. But what does Mr. Holden care? He got his $20,000 and all expenses paid. Now he can go to another case. These arbitrators hear cases not just from airlines but from all other labor disputes. I don't think he'll go broke.

 

[ualdriver]

No, we have not received any money. We won the grievance, problem is the arbitrator did not want issue an award. He wanted the union and company to try to mutually negotiate a settlement and a timetable for that was set. There was no success at a settlement, so hearings were conducted by arbitrator to reach a decision on award.

Here we are, 11 months after we won the grievance, and not one bit closer to being compensated.

Today, his decision was announced: He decided that we should not get our pre-concessionary contract back, and AGAIN asked us to work with management to work out a settlement.

This has become a freaking joke. He was paid by us to make a decision, and he passed the buck AGAIN!

I don't get it. I thought an arbitrator already ruled in your favor quite a while back concerning the paycuts you guys took in order to get the UAL flying, which of course never materialized. Now the arbitrator is saying that you have to reach an agreement on how you're supposed to be paid for an abitration reward you already won? What are you supposed to agree upon? Whether you get paid in 100's or 10's? UFB.

 

[atrdriver]

And again, how is this ALPAs fault? The arbitrator made the decision, all ALPA, or the company for that matter can do, is offer arguments. It looks to me as if ALPA did a pretty good job with that, as you WON the arbitration.

 

[ILLINI]

All the arbitrator has said so far in a nutshell is that the pilots have won the grievance. With this latest letter, he said that the pre-concessionary (2001) contract will not be reinstated, and that we will continue to work under our current (2003) contract. As of yet he has not ruled how much or which pilots are entitled to any back pay if any at all. That's what he wants the company and union to agree on within the next 45 days. At the end of those 45 days he will issue his own decision as to who will get back pay if any and how much they are owed. Since neither the union or company have budged whatsoever on all previous attempts to reach a decision, I'm pretty confident they won't come to an agreement in the next 45 days either. Hopefully the arbitrator already has his decision written up and will submit it shortly after the 45 days has expired and we won't have to wait another 90 days to submit our arguments all over again and have the arbitrator take another 6 months to review it before he takes his 90 days or whatever it is to issue his decision.

 

[XJohXJ]

It sounds like the arbitration process is what needs to be fixed, not ALPA.

 

[DoinTime]

It sounds like the arbitration process is what needs to be fixed, not ALPA.

The only way to get us out from arbitrators settling all of our disputes is to contribute to ALPA PAC and vote for labor friendly politicians (generally not republicans).

 

[IADBLRJ41]

I agree without ALPA we would have never even seen an arbitration date. We would not even seen a case.

True it is not what we were 100% looking for but we are one of very few airlines that have had some success at getting some of the concessions back. We shall see what happens.

 

[ualdriver]

All the arbitrator has said so far in a nutshell is that the pilots have won the grievance. With this latest letter, he said that the pre-concessionary (2001) contract will not be reinstated, and that we will continue to work under our current (2003) contract. As of yet he has not ruled how much or which pilots are entitled to any back pay if any at all. That's what he wants the company and union to agree on within the next 45 days. At the end of those 45 days he will issue his own decision as to who will get back pay if any and how much they are owed. Since neither the union or company have budged whatsoever on all previous attempts to reach a decision, I'm pretty confident they won't come to an agreement in the next 45 days either. Hopefully the arbitrator already has his decision written up and will submit it shortly after the 45 days has expired and we won't have to wait another 90 days to submit our arguments all over again and have the arbitrator take another 6 months to review it before he takes his 90 days or whatever it is to issue his decision.

Interesting. Thanks for the information. Good luck with your arbitration. You guys deserve 100% of your money back, plus significant interest.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I have no idea what this is about, but why is it that everyone blames ALPA whenever things don't go their way.

For AWAC and Us Air pilots... when you go to an arbitrator, you go in knowing that you are rolling the dice. Take what you got and quit whining. If you wanted a sure thing, you shouldn't have gone to arbitration! You made your bed, now lie in it!

 

[ualdriver]

I have no idea what this is about, but why is it that everyone blames ALPA whenever things don't go their way.

For AWAC and Us Air pilots... when you go to an arbitrator, you go in knowing that you are rolling the dice. Take what you got and quit whining. If you wanted a sure thing, you shouldn't have gone to arbitration! You made your bed, now lie in it!

John,

One of the rare times I'll have to disagree with you concerning the AWAC guys. They got screwed, the arbitrator sided with them, and they are being forced to go to arbitration to get to get the back pay that they deserve. Their management is dragging their feet because they know they are going to owe their pilots significant $$ due to arbitrator's original decision.

The guy that started this post was a misinformed idiot who somehow believes that ALPA told the arbitrator to rule the way he did or some other ridiculous notion. It wasn't even worth addressing as he was so far out in left field.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The guy that started this post was a misinformed idiot who somehow believes that ALPA told the arbitrator to rule the way he did or some other ridiculous notion. It wasn't even worth addressing as he was so far out in left field.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make.

 

[Skyguy]

Not ALPA’s fault. Ask yourself who sets the arbitration process? How is this process beneficial to the pilots? Its NOT! Did ALPA hire any outside experts to present evidence to Holden? NO! ALPA keeps it in house to save them money not you. Was there any investigation into Untied side of the story? NO, this would cost money. Do you think the ALPA attorneys, on a guaranteed salary, have anything at stake compared to an outside attorney with a private law practice? I doubt it. I bet they are great lawyers, but they have little at stake. Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator? What is his record for the pilots in the past, ZERO! Was there any investigation to the reality of the Sub-Chapter “S” corporation’s financials? NO! They just accepted the face value of the report given by who else……. AWAC. So the owners lied to employees to get the concessions, why would they not lie in the arbitration, because they took an oath? Get real, they did just what they wanted, and stole that money from the employees and had a better Christmas than any of its hard working, cross country moving, dedicated professional that allow it to operate and make them rich.

Just check the internet. AWAC ended up with 8.3 Million shares of USAir at 15.00 a share. Plus one seat on the board. AWAC EMPLOYEES GOT HOSED. Before anything else happens, someone better figure out how to find the lies, uncover them and vacate this binding arbitration. This is not going to happen under ALPA.

 

[BoilerUP]

So much ignorance, so little time (or desire)...

I don't know how our hard-working Grievance volunteers or Carl Fleming keep doing what they're doing when they read posts like this...

 

[rightrudder]

We would not be in the position we are now in if our own union leaders and the ALPA attorney had done due diligence when it came to implementing the concessions. The concessions were due to go into effect once we had a new long-term agreement with UAL.

The company said in Oct. 2003, okay, our new agreement is now in effect. The union and ALPA attorney said, show us proof. Company said we can't, it's confidential, just trust us. Union reps and ALPA attorney said "OK, we'll trust you".

Not a good move.

It's all a moot point now, but I do feel let down by our reps and the ALPA attorney for allowing the concessions to be implemented without proper proof. If they had, we would not have gone down this road.

 

[Grinder10]

I didn't realize an arbitrator's decision could go to arbitration. Where does it end?

 

[sweptback]

Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator?

The process is a little more complicated than that... both the company and union have a say.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I love a good ALPA bash session as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't blame the loss of this arbitration on ALPA..... The blame goes to the continued competition within a brand for flying due to a complete failure of ALPA to control the flying...........

Place the blame where it belongs..... This is much more an ALPA national issue then a local failure......

 

[AWACoff]

Arbitrator Holden ruled FOR the pilot group in a grievance around 7 or 8 years ago, I believe. The arbitrator mentioned that there was no guarantee that we would have continued to have the bases or A/C we had while with United. That is true. There was also no guarantee that we wouldn't have been flying 777s for United. Both statements are ridiculous. The 146s were moneymaking machines for United. DEN-ASE was one of the most profitable domestic routes for them. Look at the disaster that is now DEN-ASE for United. United wanted those 146s but the owners of AWAC made is joke of the bid just so United would walk away from the 146s. The most important thing is that the union ensures that all parties affected are given a fair and equitable share of the remedy.

John Pennekamp, you said it best. You have NO idea what this is about. We haven't gotten anything yet. That is what arbitration is all about. Deciding who gets what. There is no bed to lie in yet. Here's some advice for you. It is better for people to think you're an idiot than to remove all doubt by typing out your azz on the internet.

Not ALPA’s fault. Ask yourself who sets the arbitration process? How is this process beneficial to the pilots? Its NOT! Did ALPA hire any outside experts to present evidence to Holden? NO! ALPA keeps it in house to save them money not you. Was there any investigation into Untied side of the story? NO, this would cost money. Do you think the ALPA attorneys, on a guaranteed salary, have anything at stake compared to an outside attorney with a private law practice? I doubt it. I bet they are great lawyers, but they have little at stake. Who from the MEC agreed to this arbitrator? What is his record for the pilots in the past, ZERO! Was there any investigation to the reality of the Sub-Chapter “S” corporation’s financials? NO! They just accepted the face value of the report given by who else……. AWAC. So the owners lied to employees to get the concessions, why would they not lie in the arbitration, because they took an oath? Get real, they did just what they wanted, and stole that money from the employees and had a better Christmas than any of its hard working, cross country moving, dedicated professional that allow it to operate and make them rich.

Just check the internet. AWAC ended up with 8.3 Million shares of USAir at 15.00 a share. Plus one seat on the board. AWAC EMPLOYEES GOT HOSED. Before anything else happens, someone better figure out how to find the lies, uncover them and vacate this binding arbitration. This is not going to happen under ALPA.

 

[Skyguy]

ualdriver

As far as being a “misinformed idiot”, makes me believe that you are not an UAL pilot at all. I find it hard to believe that one of my brother/sister union members would stoop to name calling with so little information or no dog in the fight. I on the other hand, have a copy of the Arbitrator’s decision in hand and have read it, more than once! I also attended the road-shows, from the very beginining in May 2003 where the ALPA attorney, infront of all the pilots, state emphatically, that she had been allowed to see AWAC’s books at the time. And the TA was necessary to remain flying and profitable for the owners. In exchange, we would have years of job security with United. The owners had a reported 100+ million dollars in profits that year. Not bad for the six, yes only six owners and ZERO share holders. I also have been informed and up-dated with each and every development of this situation as they have occurred. So misinformed really doesn't work here.
I also don’t know of even one pilot that has won in arbitration with Holden at the table. Although I know some fellow pilots that have lost and the company personnel were found to be telling un-truths and proven un-truths during the hearing, that the arbitrator did not take into account. Almost 2000 present and former ALPA/AWAC pilots are affected by this situation. A majority of which, don’t earn anywhere near what a main-line pilot makes, but they do deserve to be paid what is due them.
God's speed to my fraternal union family.

 

[Lampshade]

I think we need some context here:

1. AWAC pilots have won the arbitration.

2. AWAC pilots asked for a return to 2001 contract and was rejected by the arbitrator. (no surprise)

3. AWAC pilots will receive a damages settlement ranging from $1-$30,000,000 (thinking 8 mil)

4. The MEC failed to manage expectations, that is why some people are flying off the handle.

 

[BoilerUP]

4. The MEC failed to manage expectations, that is why some people are flying off the handle.

IN MY OPINION I don't think this is the case.

I think the MEC was put in the untenable position where they HAD to take the company to arbitration; "politically" negotiation was not an option.

Any negotiated remedy that didn't include full back pay and a return to CBA 2001 for every single pilot affected would have been unacceptable to the pilot group, and everybody knows ATW wasn't willing to do that. The pilot group wouldn't have tolerated the MEC negotiating out pilots no longer on property or those who were hired under the 2003 CBA; doing so would have either opened up a bunch of legal liability or permanently fractured the pilot group's unity.

Between a rock and a hard place, I don't have any issues with how the MEC handled this issue. I think certain folks within the pilot group (past and present) didn't have reasonable expectations themselves for a remedy...but I also think nobody expected the arbitrator to roll over like he did in his "explanation".

 

[Lampshade]

The full back pay is a reasonable demand and you may get it but the return to the 2001 CBA was never in the cards. Why? Because the pilots traded concessions for long term stability (employment, not domiciles) and they received just that but with USAirways instead. The arbitrator basically said it was a moot point between United or USAirways, you ended up where you wanted to be with a long term employment agreement. He was never going to give you both a long term contract and the 2001 CBA because the company breached the "fully effective" portion of the LOA. "The law abhors a forfeiture" was mentioned by the arbitrator which states:

A FORFEITURE is a total loss of a right or a thing because of the failure to do something as required. Neither will equity disregard a contract provision that was fairly bargained. Generally it is assumed that a party who does most of what is required in a business contract and does it in a reasonable way, should not be penalized for the violation of a minor technicality.

The MEC asked for 2001 CBA, back pay and interest, basically everything, which what they are suppose to do. The MEC has lawyers that can tell them the odds of getting all that and I'm sure they had a good idea that they wouldn't. So managing expectations to the pilot group could have been better thats all.

Look at the USAir/AWA arbitration, basically the same thing. The USAir MEC told their pilot group they were getting DOH even when the arbitrator said they needed to change there position, they didn't and the rest is history. They didn't manage the expectations when they knew in advance they wouldn't get what they were asking for, and the east pilots are shocked by an out come that was pretty much known in advance by their MEC, sad but true.

 

[DiverDriver]

The arbitrator ruled that ALPA did not file in a timely manner and THAT is why he was not returning us to the 2001 contract.