Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[N905TW]

All this accomplished is 'guarantee' that there will NOT be an integration of the two carriers; as the combined list means Nothing unless the two carriers are combined. With 3000+ strong, the US Air (east) pilots have NO reason to agree to a 'joint contract' unless there is A Lot of money in it for them.

While this is a wonderful "theory" of what could happen, I really am skeptical that the US East group would rather work under LOA 93. I commute to PHX, and was on East metal in the jumpseat a few months ago. The CLT based crew was very open and honest, and wanted me to talk openly and honestly, not just spout off the answers they wanted to hear just because I was in their jumpseat. And that's exactly what we did for 4 hours. We discussed the combined seniority list, and while all 3 of us had differing ideas and thoughts, one thing we ALL agreed on was that whatever the arbitrator ruled, it would be final and we would move on.

That discussion however, took up only 1/10th of our flight time. What the crew really wanted to talk about was the need for a new combined contract. All I heard for 3 hours was how bad things were under LOA 93, and they both had more than enough examples about how bad quality of life is on that side. This was just around the time that we were threatening to pull out of Joint talks and continue along with our own section 6. They were scared to death that they would possibly have to work under their concessionary contract for any longer than necessary. In the Captain's own words: "we are beat down as far as we can go".

Assuming that any new TA for a Joint Contract has improvements to the AWA book, are you seriously thinking that a majority of the active East pilots would vote down a proposal that included a rather large boost in pay, more vacation and sick time, better scheduling rules, West pref bid, better rest rules, improved reserve system, restored crew meals, etc? And for what reason?

This list was constructed on the basis of what each group brought to the table on merger day. If you were in the bottom 15%, guess what, you are still in the bottom 15%. I understand why some people are going ballistic by seeing someone with 15 years East seniority just 1 number senior to someone with 1 year West seniority, but the fact of the matter is that we are not responsible for USAir's problems for the past 20 years. The fact that 15 years East seniority only bought you domestic 737 F/O RSV in PHL is not my problem.

How does a furloughed employee think they have any right to displace or jump ahead of someone who was actually WORKING when this merger occurred? I am furloughed TWA, and if AA bought Continental tomorrow, for example, I would expect nothing more than to be placed at the bottom of the new list. I am not working, so therefore I have no expectation of being placed in front of 1 or 2 or 3 year CO new hires. They are working and active, I am furloughed and bring nothing to the party.

The focus going forward needs to be on securing the best Joint Contract that we can, not crying over an arbitration that worked exactly as it was supposed to. East had the opportunity to negotiate on this for the past 2 years, but decided to try and stick it to the West. That failed, and its now time to move on.

 

[FLYLOW22]

FlyLow,

No big surprise you're for option #4. Pretty easy to say that from the outside. And yes, your last 5 yrs meant nothing as you had no chance of being recalled prior to the merger. If you want to come back to help burn the place down, though...that's your choice.

Take the JT8D out of your ass.

I will be the judge abd jury on my 5 years.

Your attitude is poor, you knowledge of the industry less.

Your tact, even lower.

Why do you think that I want to come back period, much less to burn it down. Certainly many there currently can carry any torch I might hold.

You have nothing to worry from me. I can just very easily see how many on the East have had their fill. The fun meter is pegged.

As for the previous 5 years. They were exciting, fruitful, educational, and lucrative. No... none of it involved US Airways... except the occasional Space Available trip. Notice a pattern?

Congrats on your win. Do you know what you've won?

 

[waveflyer]

Pilots- we are our own worst enemies.

How many pilot's lives have to be disrupted by the marriage of "seniority" to these companies and CEO's before we realize that we need more freedom to move company to company- and a National Seniority list.

Stupidest/pettiest smart people i've ever met. Don't we have enough people working against our career than to do this-- (ie: Mgmt, gov't, conventional wisdom). That our whole career system is broke- is proven every time someone starts all over regardless of experience, every time someone screws up their life commuting from an old domicile b/c their company bailed out and another took over the market-- Seriously- there are brilliant pilots- most of our problems could be fixed with new thinking- But "THEY" play our pride...

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Congrats on your win. Do you know what you've won?

No, please tell me? Obviously you've been looking at this as a competition. I'll I know is that for the last 2 years I have been worried about getting stapled (DOH) to the AAA list and watching my career completely stagnate. I am absolutely relieved that it didn't happen that way.

Before the merger I was a relatively junior FO at AWA. Now I'm a relatively junior FO at US Airways. That's a windfall? AAA guys are saying that I'll benefit from their retirements. OK. So will the most junior pilot on property whether he be an AAA or AWA pilot. Should there have been fences? I don't know. I do know that there aren't any so deal with it.

I'm sorry to hear that you were furloughed. But it isn't my fault. I wish you the best of luck in your career but not at my expense. Hopefully you choose to come back with a good attitude. If not I hope you find a good alternative. Personally, I think it would be a mistake not to come back but you have to decide what's best for you.

Just remember, now that its all said and done, the list is final and like it or not the AAA/AWA pilots are on the same team. I didn't decide it and neither did you. Send your complaints to the arbitrator. Coming to work with the "screw US Airways" attitude will do absolutely nothing to make things better.

I get the impression that most of the ranting is coming from furloughed guys. Is this correct? How many of you are active AAA pilots?

 

[Hpilot]

While this is a wonderful "theory" of what could happen, I really am skeptical that the US East group would rather work under LOA 93. I commute to PHX, and was on East metal in the jumpseat a few months ago. The CLT based crew was very open and honest, and wanted me to talk openly and honestly, not just spout off the answers they wanted to hear just because I was in their jumpseat. And that's exactly what we did for 4 hours. We discussed the combined seniority list, and while all 3 of us had differing ideas and thoughts, one thing we ALL agreed on was that whatever the arbitrator ruled, it would be final and we would move on.

That discussion however, took up only 1/10th of our flight time. What the crew really wanted to talk about was the need for a new combined contract. All I heard for 3 hours was how bad things were under LOA 93, and they both had more than enough examples about how bad quality of life is on that side. This was just around the time that we were threatening to pull out of Joint talks and continue along with our own section 6. They were scared to death that they would possibly have to work under their concessionary contract for any longer than necessary. In the Captain's own words: "we are beat down as far as we can go".

Assuming that any new TA for a Joint Contract has improvements to the AWA book, are you seriously thinking that a majority of the active East pilots would vote down a proposal that included a rather large boost in pay, more vacation and sick time, better scheduling rules, West pref bid, better rest rules, improved reserve system, restored crew meals, etc? And for what reason?

This list was constructed on the basis of what each group brought to the table on merger day. If you were in the bottom 15%, guess what, you are still in the bottom 15%. I understand why some people are going ballistic by seeing someone with 15 years East seniority just 1 number senior to someone with 1 year West seniority, but the fact of the matter is that we are not responsible for USAir's problems for the past 20 years. The fact that 15 years East seniority only bought you domestic 737 F/O RSV in PHL is not my problem.

How does a furloughed employee think they have any right to displace or jump ahead of someone who was actually WORKING when this merger occurred? I am furloughed TWA, and if AA bought Continental tomorrow, for example, I would expect nothing more than to be placed at the bottom of the new list. I am not working, so therefore I have no expectation of being placed in front of 1 or 2 or 3 year CO new hires. They are working and active, I am furloughed and bring nothing to the party.

The focus going forward needs to be on securing the best Joint Contract that we can, not crying over an arbitration that worked exactly as it was supposed to. East had the opportunity to negotiate on this for the past 2 years, but decided to try and stick it to the West. That failed, and its now time to move on.

I too just rode on an East jump seat. The pilots were extremely professional and friendly. There was no "burn this mother down mentality" whatsoever. They too felt the important thing now is a good single contract.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

I think that most of the ranters on here are furloughs (i.e. pilots that aren't employed at US Airways). I've interacted with several AAA pilots in the terminals and on the jumpseat. All the active guys were pretty cool to talk to. I hope I get a chance to fly with some of them.

The only people who were not cool were the furloughs. One MDA guy tried to start an arguement with me so I just said ok and walked away.

 

[MCDU]

The reason there are no active AAA pilots on here is because most of them are adults. This forum is mostly for junior newhires age 38 or less, who still think they are in high school. Just like me.

Marty

 

[Andy]

Congrats on your win. Do you know what you've won?

Oooh! Oooh! I know! I know! A career at a carrier that won't be stuck with the likes of flylow22.
I remember you from the aborted U-UAL merge. Something like a '99 hire at U, right? The same flylow22 who was gloating about being able to bid the 400 immediately after the U-UAL merger was complete, right?

As for your 5+ years on furlough from U, they count as much as my 5 years of furlough at UAL. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. If you ain't on property, you might as well be a mort. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The reason there are no active AAA pilots on here is because most of them are adults. This forum is mostly for junior newhires age 38 or less, who still think they are in high school. Just like me.

Marty

Marty, you above desciption is the future. Those 38 or less junior new hires are going to be bitter over the screw job those senior adults running ALPA deserve.

Those senior adults created this mess as the result of bad decision after bad decision supported by ALPA. Those senior adults have also created the bitterness over the issues these 38 or less junior new hires burn with a passion concerning after being screwed by those senior adults and ALPA.

Those senior adults need to leave, step down, quit, move on, and shut up. The mistakes made were made by the senior adults who ran every US major airline off a cliff. Screw them and their problems because they are just part of the baby boomer losers.

 

[FLYLOW22]

No, please tell me? Obviously you've been looking at this as a competition. I'll I know is that for the last 2 years I have been worried about getting stapled (DOH) to the AAA list and watching my career completely stagnate. I am absolutely relieved that it didn't happen that way.

Before the merger I was a relatively junior FO at AWA. Now I'm a relatively junior FO at US Airways. That's a windfall? AAA guys are saying that I'll benefit from their retirements. OK. So will the most junior pilot on property whether he be an AAA or AWA pilot. Should there have been fences? I don't know. I do know that there aren't any so deal with it.

I'm sorry to hear that you were furloughed. But it isn't my fault. I wish you the best of luck in your career but not at my expense. Hopefully you choose to come back with a good attitude. If not I hope you find a good alternative. Personally, I think it would be a mistake not to come back but you have to decide what's best for you.

Just remember, now that its all said and done, the list is final and like it or not the AAA/AWA pilots are on the same team. I didn't decide it and neither did you. Send your complaints to the arbitrator. Coming to work with the "screw US Airways" attitude will do absolutely nothing to make things better.

I get the impression that most of the ranting is coming from furloughed guys. Is this correct? How many of you are active AAA pilots?

Did you read the rest of my post?

I wish you good luck. You will all need it.

Regardless of the outcome, US Air has SEVERAL larger outstanding issues. Mainly, competition and management.

I doubt that labor will see eye to eye enough after this ruling to do much of anything against the above 2 factors.

It might have been better for all to get a worse ruling seniority wise for the West to preserve more of a positive spirit, not one of disunity and ill-will. To many on the West, it seems that everything is about the bottom line senioirty number achieved.

I think that you will all have a front row seat now to the fact that NOTHING is as simpe as a number, nothing.

Single contract? I doubt it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Oooh! Oooh! I know! I know! A career at a carrier that won't be stuck with the likes of flylow22.
I remember you from the aborted U-UAL merge. Something like a '99 hire at U, right? The same flylow22 who was gloating about being able to bid the 400 immediately after the U-UAL merger was complete, right?

As for your 5+ years on furlough from U, they count as much as my 5 years of furlough at UAL. Nada. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. If you ain't on property, you might as well be a mort. It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Yes, same guy.

Claims made to fly the 400 were in response to claims from the UAL camp for the stapler. Equally as crazy. Meant to be nothing more, nothing less.

I guess that period has become my MO on this board. It gave UAL guys something/someone to be angry as; a moving target.

No, I have not changed my screen name like most. Why?

No, I will not be back at US. At the time of my furlough, the change in occupation seemed like a bad thing. Good things have come from the change. Very good things.

I could not justify the return, fair integration or not.

I won't go into the pay/bene/QOL comparisons, not important.

Enjoy the fall out. You are all fighting over scraps and left overs of a once proud and lucrative industry.

 

[Andy]

Claims made to fly the 400 were in response to claims from the UAL camp for the stapler. Equally as crazy. Meant to be nothing more, nothing less.

I don't recall UAL guys yelling for a stapler; not saying that it didn't occur, just that I don't remember it. I do recall some U guys wanting DOH, but never saw it as a realistic outcome.
I favored relative seniority in that attempted merge and still feel that relative seniority is the least unfair solution to any mergers.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I don't recall UAL guys yelling for a stapler; not saying that it didn't occur, just that I don't remember it. I do recall some U guys wanting DOH, but never saw it as a realistic outcome.
I favored relative seniority in that attempted merge and still feel that relative seniority is the least unfair solution to any mergers.

Water under the bridge... as FOR ME is the AWA/AAA scenario.

I believe that relative seniority would have been a good place to visit, had it been consumated between AAA/UAL.

Many things said on this board are Hollywood at best and even harder to surpise one's emotion behind the words. I believe that 90% of communication occurs non verbally so FlightInfo is out as a means of effective communication.

 

[Crzipilot]

I think that most of the ranters on here are furloughs (i.e. pilots that aren't employed at US Airways). I've interacted with several AAA pilots in the terminals and on the jumpseat. All the active guys were pretty cool to talk to. I hope I get a chance to fly with some of them.

The only people who were not cool were the furloughs. One MDA guy tried to start an arguement with me so I just said ok and walked away.

Actually many furloughed ones are on here and being quite, many active too. Though if you were able to see the active ALPA board, you'd see it as much worse than what's been posted on here......

 

[ironspud]

I believe that 90% of communication occurs non verbally so FlightInfo is out as a means of effective communication.

Best "jousting" on this subject is over at USAviation. Been through 10 tubs of popcorn and 6 cases of beer (burp).