Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[NCFlyer]

Because they don't nor have they ever flown aircraft for US Airways, Inc.

Not trying to hijack this threat but many of the aircraft operated by PDT are placarded with "Leased by US Airways", and the ones that aren't are owned by US Airways.

Just a thought, if Mr. Parker & Co announced that all the CEL pilots were to be merged with the mainline seniority list I am fairly certain the AAA pilots wouldn't want DOH. They would come up with every reason imaginable as to why it shouldn't be allowed. The first 120 or so pilots on the CEL list would have still be active pilots at mainline with their CEL DOH. A few have late '70s DOH & many have early '80s DOH.

 

[Green]

For over 50 years DOH was the standard ALPA position. With provisions and protections for different types of flying, ie wide body international etc.

It was good enough for PI/US and for PSA/US and for Allegheny Mowhak etc etc etc. It was the standard until the junior United pilots got it changed because they were afraid of a merge with US.

IF you take this to it's ridiculous conclusion when this company merges with Virgin, or Skybus or Spirit then all those pilots, some with less than one year seniority, hired as captains off the street, will be senior to most West pilots. Your service time will count for nothing.

You will see more mergers, and you may not like what you get, praticularly as you grow older and spend more time in this industry. Your prior service time has no meaning. If the company merges with some upstart you will get hosed.

A great way to build ALPA unity.

I think your logic is faulty there. Nicalou carefully looked at the value of jobs brought to the table...ie payscales/carreer progression. What are the career expectations of a Captain at Skybus? They are to make 65k per year indefinitely without a retirement. They would make more than 65k per year stapled to the bottom of the active USAirways list. Hence career expectations would be preserved and Pre merger pay would remain the same. Nicalou would never integrate skybus on a relative basis when you consider the economic value of jobs brought to the table. Skybus is an unproven airline whearas AWA is a major that has been around for the last 24 years or so.

Nicalou is the top arbitrator in the Nation. He has been working with airline mergers for decades. He didn't just pull this out of his A#s. Both pilot neutrals commented on his competency as an arbitrator in this award. Obviously this is highly emotional and many from both sides are pissed.
I would argue that AAA's expectations were absurdly high.

But my opinion doesn't matter and the saving grace is that nobody at AWA seems interested in PHL/CLT/etc except for the handful of pilots that commute from the east coast.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I like #4.

 

[Saabslime]

By the way, the arbitrator really did not follow ALPA merger policy and it does set a dangerous precedent.

Yet the east sides ONLY argument was for the arbitrator to consider a ruling that completely went away from ALPA merger policy.....DOH. You hypocrites are really starting to get old (pun intended), and merger policy WAS followed to the letter.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Nicalou is the top arbitrator in the Nation. He has been working with airline mergers for decades. He didn't just pull this out of his A#s. Both pilot neutrals commented on his competency as an arbitrator in this award.

This is not true. One of the pilot neutrals strongly disagreed with the construction of the list. He thought the list was unfair. But Nicolau did his own thing.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Not trying to hijack this threat but many of the aircraft operated by PDT are placarded with "Leased by US Airways", and the ones that aren't are owned by US Airways.

Just a thought, if Mr. Parker & Co announced that all the CEL pilots were to be merged with the mainline seniority list I am fairly certain the AAA pilots wouldn't want DOH. They would come up with every reason imaginable as to why it shouldn't be allowed. The first 120 or so pilots on the CEL list would have still be active pilots at mainline with their CEL DOH. A few have late '70s DOH & many have early '80s DOH.

Those A/C are owned by "Group", not "Inc." That is the difference...

 

[ALGFLYR]

You haven't fully thought that one out, have you? With Parker operating under two separate contracts, he can shift block hours and equipment from one contract to the other. Which way do you think he's likely to go, should he choose that action? To the side where he has a happy work force, or to the side where the work force wants to burn the place down?
Yep, East can operate under a separate contract until all that's left is a couple of baggage carts. Good plan.

This is not true. The Transition agreement clearly defines the minimum number of aircraft that must be operated on the East and West side. It also clearly states that NO aircraft may be shifted to the other side. This language was specifically designed to stop this management tactic during the period of seperate operations... however long that may be... And do you think Parker cares about which side is happy? NOT. It's all about the cost.

 

[Saabslime]

What you guys are'nt considering is that Prater will combine Mec's within weeks. There will be more than enough votes to pass a reasonable proposal by the company and the LIST as it will probably become known will go into effect.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I would argue that AAA's expectations were absurdly high.

I think I can summarize this entire thread:

D'OH!

 

[PositiveRate]

FlyLow,

No big surprise you're for option #4. Pretty easy to say that from the outside. And yes, your last 5 yrs meant nothing as you had no chance of being recalled prior to the merger. If you want to come back to help burn the place down, though...that's your choice.

ALG,

Did you read the dissenting opinion? You paint it as if he thought the entire award was unfair - that is not true at all...it was mostly an ass kiss letter about what a great job Nicolau did. He dissented on the fact that the guys who have been recalled SINCE the merger announcement were still placed below Odell. He was silent on the other 5900 positions.

--He was also the EAST's pilot neutral--it goes without saying that he would write something like that.

---here's what he said...basically the recalls that started a YEAR after the merger announcement deserve to go somewhere higher....BS, but he had to say it.

"The vast amount of age-related attrition that has occurred within the US Airways pilot group caused the recall of over 300 US Airways pilots between March 2006 and the first week of January ofthis year. The pace of recalls is brisk and has continued. During the hearings we learned that additional recalls were taking place and there was testimony that stated at the current pace it was possible that all US Airways pilots would receive recall notices before the
end of 2007.

At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline...."​

 

[Hpilot]

One of them is our PHX FO rep!!!!!! 99-101 hours per month...month after month. This while we are in the middle of a DO YOUR OWN JOB CAMPAIGN. Somebody needs to have a serious talk with this rep. Thank god our reps were'nt in charge of the merger committee.

I talked to an FO that was complaining about being gone too much from home. Turns out he picks up all the extra flying he can. #1)Family comes first #2)1400 furloughed guys and gals still on the street. I felt like smacking him upside the head.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Well, looking at it objectively from the outside; you missed something. (i guess that would be #4)

4. NOT agree to a joint contract, the carriers will NOT be integrated, continue to operate separately and the combined list will be 'meaningless.' Then all of the retirements/attrition on the East side will go to East pilots. Guys will upgrade, move to the widebodies and int'l flying (thus getting some pay increase), and if this continues for about 5 yrs. of so; it will be like a 'pilot imposed fence,' something the arbitrator probably should have done.

This will probably make Parker happy anyway, as I don't really think he cares if the carriers are integrated. I believe he has made public statements, numerous times, that he has no problem continuing to operate with two certificates indefinitely, if necessary. After all, then he can just play one side again the other; let's see, two pilot groups with absolutely NO unity, sound about right? Also, there is absolutely Nothing in the FAA, DOT regs. that say he cannot continue to operate them separately, Right??

Let's see, if I was on the East side; what would be my choice? I'm guessing #4 (it was multiple choice?)

By the way, the arbritator really did not follow ALPA merger policy and it does set a dangerous precedent. An arbritator is merely a 'judge' and you guys act like you have never heard of a judge making a bad decision.

And, I would explain to you where the arbritator when wrong; however, do not wish to waste my time with people who don't want to listen, or not smart enought to understand and just want to argue and 'rant'

Enjoy your victory, I am happy for you. Guess you won the battle, but Lost the war!!

Have fun........Now, ready, set, GO; "rant away" (as I don't really care what you think or say).

DA

How about this:

The West pilots will go ahead and negotiate a new West contract while the East guys continue to fly under their POS contract.

As the East folks begin to retire we will hire new pilots to replace them. But instead of placing those pilots on the East list we will place them on the West list. We'll be able to do this because, as East pilots retire, we will start to transfer the East planes (starting with the widebodies) to the West operation. Eventually, we'll get rid of most of the troublemakers through attrition. I'll bet we could get Parker to agree to this.

Now you east people are thinking "the TA says you can't". We'll use your logic on this one. If you don't like something don't use it, right? You see, you don't like the new seniority list so you won't honor it. Well, we don't like the TA so we won't honor that.

You east people basically keep saying stuff like "we'll screw the company and make things tough for Parker before we use the new list". With this attitude do you think Parker will take your side on anything? It would be in the airline's best interest to get rid of as many of you as possible.

 

[Andy]

This is not true. The Transition agreement clearly defines the minimum number of aircraft that must be operated on the East and West side. It also clearly states that NO aircraft may be shifted to the other side. This language was specifically designed to stop this management tactic during the period of seperate operations... however long that may be... And do you think Parker cares about which side is happy? NOT. It's all about the cost.

Great. It'll be interesting to see how that works out for you guys. I don't think that it will go as well for you as you'd like.
You're right, it's all about the cost. And with many of your class act coworkers threatening to burn the place down, I'm trying to figure out how you figure the east will be more profitable.

 

[MCDU]

The airline will either have two seperate lists or permanent fences.
If not, it will fail.

Marty

 

[PlaneDrvr]

The airline will either have two seperate lists or permanent fences.
If not, it will fail.

Marty

Now I'm just looking at all of this from the outside, but very wise observation, Marty.

However, you're not talking about truly 'wise' people here, you're talking about 'pilots' so I'd put my money on the latter.

Also, Parker was sooooooo very critical of the DL management back during the attempted buyout, saying "their plan for the airline was unworkable" but at least they had/have a plan to 'grow' their airline/business, not sure Parker has any 'plan' (definitely not involving growth), other than 'run everything on the cheap' boost the bottom line, and most of all, "cash his check, collect his bonus and stock options" Well, sounds like a 'good plan' for him; wasn't he one of the most highly compensated airline exec. last year???

Just for what's it worth.

DA

 

[UALjan15]

The airline will either have two seperate lists or permanent fences.
If not, it will fail.

Marty

Well, you seem quite sure of yourself to speak in absolutes about the airline industry. What exactly do you mean by "fail?" If you mean fail to achieve labor harmony, I'd wholeheartedly agree. If you mean fail as in go the way of Eastern and Braniff, I'm not sure that I can make that stretch with you. If you want to see an example of an airline persevering through seniority list discord, look no further than NWA.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

The airline will either have two seperate lists or permanent fences.
If not, it will fail.

Marty

You mean like Delta, American, or Northwest?

The airline will be what we make of it. Personally, I'd like to see it do well and I'll do my part to make sure that happens.

Are the guys on here that are screaming bloody murder East pilots or unemployed (furloughed) pilots? Tell us what your status is when you post. I'm employed by AWA.

Remember, if you you are not active at US Airways/AWA right now (or at least as of May '05) that means you are/were not employed. That means that you do/did not have a job here whatsoever. Being recalled just means that they will hire you before of hiring someone off the street...but you are coming back as a new hire essentially.

My point: if you don't work here you don't have much of a say in what goes on here. Maybe you should be happy that you're coming back at all.

 

[Green]

The airline will either have two seperate lists or permanent fences.
If not, it will fail.

Marty

Marty,

how many years has it been since AAA pilots lost their pension and took a 50% paycut? Yet Us Airways is profitable today...I don't think terrible morale necesarily equals failed airline. What I don't get is all this bravado of 'we'll operate under our own contract for the next 5-10 years' thus preventing the merged list from happening. So you would happily make 125 hr as a captain while the rest of the industry nears or exceeds SWA? Aren't most of you guys in your late 50's? Why would you want to leave 200-400 grand on the table in order to 'save' a few hundred furloughed guys who are probably at JetBlue anyways? Hard to turn down several hundred thousand dollars when you're nearing mandatory retirement.

Either way, whether you like it or not, we (awa pilots) are going to inherit the airline, including your cherished 9 A330's (all 2% of the fleet). Much of our workforce is under 40.

I tend to think this is all a bunch of emotional bravado that will blow over in the next couple months as the reality of turning down 50k per year and workrule improvements sets in.

 

[Bringupthebird]

What you guys are'nt considering is that Prater will combine Mec's within weeks. There will be more than enough votes to pass a reasonable proposal by the company and the LIST as it will probably become known will go into effect.

Yeah Prater would like to set a precedent that ALPA would be pushed around by malcontents and reward the same people who have threatened to bolt. So he'll toss all the AWA people under the bus, prove to the rest of ALPA that he's a wimp and lose all the US ALPA dues a few months later when the west pilots get a judge to file an injunction forcing the arbitration to be upheld.

Yeah, sumpin' like that.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

SWA Wages???

Marty,

how many years has it been since AAA pilots lost their pension and took a 50% paycut? Yet Us Airways is profitable today...I don't think terrible morale necesarily equals failed airline. What I don't get is all this bravado of 'we'll operate under our own contract for the next 5-10 years' thus preventing the merged list from happening. So you would happily make 125 hr as a captain while the rest of the industry nears or exceeds SWA? Aren't most of you guys in your late 50's? Why would you want to leave 200-400 grand on the table in order to 'save' a few hundred furloughed guys who are probably at JetBlue anyways? Hard to turn down several hundred thousand dollars when you're nearing mandatory retirement.

Either way, whether you like it or not, we (awa pilots) are going to inherit the airline, including your cherished 9 A330's (all 2% of the fleet). Much of our workforce is under 40.

I tend to think this is all a bunch of emotional bravado that will blow over in the next couple months as the reality of turning down 50k per year and workrule improvements sets in.

Damn, I didn't realize that Parker was offering you SWA scale wages?? Guess You should sign off on that right away!

The last I heard that was made public was that he wanted a 'cost neutral' contract, which is 'code words' for NO Real Money, but I guess things have changed in recent negiotations??

Good for you guys.

DA