AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[k9nole]

I'm not trying to bait you' I'm just trying to sort this crap out. I'm so far down the list I can't see daylight at noon so it will be a long time before it gets to me.

You might be closer than you think. About 25% of JetBlue is furloughed USAir pilots that have no interest in USAirways recall, myself included.

I'd say atleast 60% of JB consists of NW, United, USAirways and Independence furloughed pilots.

FWIW, this month I was flying with a pilot that turned down recall to United.

 

[LearLove]

You might be closer than you think. About 25% of JetBlue is furloughed USAir pilots that have no interest in USAirways recall, myself included.

I'd say atleast 60% of JB consists of NW, United, USAirways and Independence furloughed pilots.

FWIW, this month I was flying with a pilot that turned down recall to United.

But never say never in this bizz. I would highly doubt what I'm about to say, but (as JetBlue has a great product, if not the best in the industry which should sustain them in the hard times ) I bet thoes guys would jump ship if they get a recall in 5 years and somehow JB is on the rocks.

I would and do totally agree with what your saying on the fact that these guys will stay at JB if recalled but like we all know.... who knows what the situation will be in 5 years or whatever time frame.

 

[LearLove]

Hey Lear Love

Are you saying that a mda guy that was on property the day the merger announcement was made is considered as "active" USAir pilot, therefore they get recall in front on a furloughed pilot who didn't go to mda?

Didn't a judge just rule on this?

I'm just asking because I don't know the answer, and unless I missed something from US west management has no idea about this, Not that it is any of their business, but Parker was asked about this last week in PHL and had no idea.

It will be an interesting battle at US east if MDA guys think they should get recalled before their senior "brothers".

I'm not trying to bait you' I'm just trying to sort this crap out. I'm so far down the list I can't see daylight at noon so it will be a long time before it gets to me.

D



PS. Be careful, I agree with phxflyr, the only talk about stapeling is on the USAir side as far as I can tell, and I run into BOTH crews regularly.

Yeah I had a feeling that might cause some heart burn around and i didn't mean it that way, just too lazy to write a full post between rest peroids during this Italian Xmas Eve 7+ course dinner right now. I can say I'm all fished out about now.

If I'm not mistaken the act of getting us considered active mainline is not to jump senority for integration or recall but to fight the "other fight" the MDA gang has going right now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Widow's Son]

I think the integration issue will come down to whatever is the cheapest training wise, which will mean everyone stay in their current airplane and seat for a long time.
I think the pilots will be a cakewalk compared to the mechanics.

 

[BeCareful!]

PS. Be careful, I agree with phxflyr, the only talk about stapeling is on the USAir side as far as I can tell, and I run into BOTH crews regularly.

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,

The stapling talk has been mostly on this board, and it's come almost exclusively from what appears to be junior AWA people (no names needed.) In the real world, far from the anonymity and childishness of this Internet site, people are typically more reasonable and civilized. If you guys are hearing stapling talk from real live US Air folks, that's news to me. No one here feels as if that is warranted or fair. Massive speed bump notwithstanding, our careers at U going forward were never in question.....no matter what it looked like on the outside or in the freekin' newspapers.

PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Please don't make me dig up the numerous posts from your guys here that blather all sorts of "to the bottom" and "stapling" remarks. It's all been you boys here on the ever entertaining flightinfo.com

In any event, time to hit the sack. I sleep quite well these days

Y'all take care, have a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Be Careful for god's sake.......always good advice

Later

 

[xanderman]

let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

I know why you feel the way you do but tell me, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you somehow deserve to be placed ahead of an active pilot flying for AWA.

You have consistently communicated that simply because you were hired at US in 19XX you deserve to be placed on top of active AWA pilots. I think your stance is wrong. Never-the-less you are entitled to you opinion.

If you would respond by asking why do I feel I should maintain my relative seniority and you remain on the bottom of the newly combined list my response in short is this: Equity. What did me and my fellow pilots and my company bring to the table? I suppose you might ask yourself this question. Was any other company looking to jump into bed with US? Were there any other outside investors looking to pour more money into your company(without AWA in the equation)?
Andy

 

[TWA Dude]

I think the integration issue will come down to whatever is the cheapest training wise, which will mean everyone stay in their current airplane and seat for a long time.

That's a given; there will be no bump-and-flush regardless. Even a staple job (either side) with tall fences would prevent that. The issue is if there are more furloughs: will one side take the pain or will it be shared? The merger committees and mediator/arbitrator know all about this. Stay tuned.

 

[A350]

xanderman:

Speaking of equity.....I don't recall anyone throwing any money AWA's way, other than the ATSB. Since both U and AWA received loans, I'd say they were about equal.

If there was a need, it was in both camps to "merge". If you think that AWA would have been in very good shape "alone" then why was your management so for it?

Lastly, remember the reductions in U aircraft was greatly in part to the fact that U was within the confines of Chapter 11 and they could easily dispose of equipment. It was driven by the economics of that situation. In other words, U jobs were put on the chopping block for YOUR future gain.

Just wait for the arbitrator to rule. Then the complaining can begin.

A350

 

[typhoonpilot]

This is always entertaining to read and really pointless to talk about since it will be decided by an arbitrator in the end, but for arguments sake let me point this out. The AWA guys want a relative seniority merger. They believe that is fair since it would not harm them in any way. What they don't say, but secretly know in their hearts, is that it would be like winning the lottery for any AWA guy who is age 45 or under. In ten years the great majority of the active USAirways pilots will be gone thus giving the remaining AWA pilots a huge windfall. It would be like your airline deciding to buy 220 airplanes and place them in service over the next ten years. That is phenomenal career progression for young AWA pilots.

The current USAirways pilots who are junior F.O.s will never make captain in this scenario (and remember,every last one of them could have held captain previously). They will retire as first officers with all that entails. They will never realize the career progression that they should have with the projected USAirways retirements and be stuck behind young AWA pilots for the remainder of their career.

This is obviously a bitter subject with those who would be placed in this position if a relative merger seniority integration would go forward.

The best answer is for a compromise. It is impossile to make everybody happy, but a compromise solution that involves fences would protect both sides. The AWA guys should always be able to enjoy seniority in PHX, LAS, or other AWA cities while the UAIR guys should always be able to enjoy seniority on the east coast and for any trans-Atlantic flying. There is a workable solution to this and I hope that it can be found for the benefit of both sides.

Just for what it is worth, the synergy that is talked about as a reason for the merger has already shown up in the form of Hawaii routes. AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again. It should be successful this time now that the cachement area of the entire eastern seaboard is included in the equation.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

TP

 

[TWA Dude]

What they don't say, but secretly know in their hearts, is that it would be like winning the lottery for any AWA guy who is age 45 or under. In ten years the great majority of the active USAirways pilots will be gone thus giving the remaining AWA pilots a huge windfall.

Well, I recall a few TWA types who thought they'd/we'd won the lottery when the AA buyout was announced. Funny how things didn't work out that way. In fact, it's funny in general how predictions for the future don't always pan out. It's certainly true that the demographics favor the younger AWA in the future but that's not the only consideration. As I've written a number of times, what about a reduction in force/furlough? Some form of shared pain is logical. A pure DOH integration puts the next 1500 or so furloughs purely from the AWA side. Your simplification of the issues does nobody any good.

AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again.

You're mistaken. Our Hawaii routes were planned from before the USA merger announcement.

 

[MD80DRVR]

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,

Later

How did I get dragged into this???

MD80DRVR

 

[typhoonpilot]

Well, I recall a few TWA types who thought they'd/we'd won the lottery when the AA buyout was announced. Funny how things didn't work out that way. In fact, it's funny in general how predictions for the future don't always pan out. It's certainly true that the demographics favor the younger AWA in the future but that's not the only consideration. As I've written a number of times, what about a reduction in force/furlough? Some form of shared pain is logical. A pure DOH integration puts the next 1500 or so furloughs purely from the AWA side. Your simplification of the issues does nobody any good.

I'm not being simplistic, nor am I suggesting straight DOH for a combined list. I'm merely pointing out that seniority and career progression need to be protected on both sides and that the relative position argument favors AWA pilots over a 15 year UAIR pilot for the remainder of their very short career.

Understandable you are worried about what happens in the event of a future furlough. Obviously you bore the brunt of the previous airline's staple job and have serious concerns, which should be addressed. I've also seen your previous posts and you are one of the few who post logically on this issue. I honeslty believe there is a workable solution. It will neither involve DOH or relative position and will be a complicated series of fences and protections. Smarter people than me are working on it and I'm sure they can come up with a solution.


TP

 

[Guppiedriver]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

It looks like the right-of-staple attitude belongs to the East side, starting at the top. How can the AAA MC mention DOH with a straight face? The DOH attitudes displayed here and especially amongst their elected reps is truly sad.


Date: 12-09-05
To: All AWA Pilots
From: AWA Merger Committee
Re: Seniority Integration Update

The AWA Merger Committee met with the AAA Merger Committee in SAN between November 30th and December 2nd, 2005 to continue our discussions over issues regarding seniority integration. The topics we discussed were those items that each party brought to the merger. These included, but were not limited to, the number of aircraft, the number of active pilots, possible staffing levels, and Hawaii flying. While our discussions were frank and professional, unfortunately no progress occurred during these talks on any of the matters critical to a fair resolution of the competing interests of the respective pilot groups.

More particularly, there is no movement in our negotiations on the following key points:
Integration methodology – AAA continues to insist that Date of Hire is a legitimate basis for integrating the two lists.
Placement of furloughed pilots – AAA continues to reject the concept that active pilots who come to the merged airline associated with flying jobs should be placed on the combined seniority list ahead of furloughed pilots.
Credit to AWA for Hawaii flying – AAA has not acknowledged that AWA Hawaiian flying that was planned well before the merger should be “credited” to AWA pilots

In addition, we have not received an official decision from ALPA National regarding the procedure that both sides must use for seniority list employment data certification.

Therefore, after consultation with our legal counsel, the AWA Merger Committee has decided to cancel our PHL negotiations next week. In the best interests of the Pilots at AWA, we have cancelled all future talks with the AAA Merger Committee until we have exchanged certified seniority lists, per the decision rendered by ALPA National. During this time, we will continue to prepare our case for future formal negotiations and mediation/arbitration if that becomes necessary.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm merely pointing out that seniority and career progression need to be protected on both sides and that the relative position argument favors AWA pilots over a 15 year UAIR pilot for the remainder of their very short career.

Well, as a practical matter I've not seen exactly what a relative seniority integration looks like and I'm not so sure one even exists. It is indeed a challenge to address expected career progression for both sides. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ash5855]

I honeslty believe there is a workable solution. It will neither involve DOH or relative position and will be a complicated series of fences and protections. Smarter people than me are working on it and I'm sure they can come up with a solution.

TP

I've stayed on the sideline for most of this debate and watched the mudslinging from afar. It seems as though TWA and Typhoon are atleast two who can look at the issues logically.

Before I state my views, I must let everyone know that I'm also a junior AWA pilot and will be looking at the situation from that perspective.

It seem to me that current U pilots are worried about the windfall that U attrition might bring junior AWA pilots while Junior AWA pilots (actually, almost all of them considering the huge differences in DOH) are worried about job security and fairness if there is a reduction in force.

I too believe that there probably is a middle ground both sides can eventually come to.

How about this:
First, The basis for the integration would be ratios based on equipment and seat or relative seniority. This would satisfy the major AWA gripe that a DOH type integration would put the majority of their pilots at the bottom and subject to the next round of furlough if this grand experiment should fail. Second, there would be very strict limits and restrictions to protect career expectations of the U pilots. Domicile fencing would protect bases, but most important of all, some kind of language insuring upgrades for former U pilots based on attrition. In other words, If there was 500 U retirements creating 500 upgrade opportunities than 500 pilots have rights to those positions.

Being a junior AWA pilot my career expaectations didn't include a 3-4 year upgrade due to your attrition. On the other hand it didn't include a bump to the bottom of your furlough list (DOH integration) in case this thing tanks.

I know that an arbitrator will most likely decide our fates but I believe, when reasonable people come together they can come to an agreement. Hopefully that is still possible here.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I've stayed on the sideline for most of this debate and watched the mudslinging from afar. It seems as though TWA and Typhoon are atleast two who can look at the issues logically.

Before I state my views, I must let everyone know that I'm also a junior AWA pilot and will be looking at the situation from that perspective.

It seem to me that current U pilots are worried about the windfall that U attrition might bring junior AWA pilots while Junior AWA pilots (actually, almost all of them considering the huge differences in DOH) are worried about job security and fairness if there is a reduction in force.

I too believe that there probably is a middle ground both sides can eventually come to.

How about this:
First, The basis for the integration would be ratios based on equipment and seat or relative seniority. This would satisfy the major AWA gripe that a DOH type integration would put the majority of their pilots at the bottom and subject to the next round of furlough if this grand experiment should fail. Second, there would be very strict limits and restrictions to protect career expectations of the U pilots. Domicile fencing would protect bases, but most important of all, some kind of language insuring upgrades for former U pilots based on attrition. In other words, If there was 500 U retirements creating 500 upgrade opportunities than 500 pilots have rights to those positions.

Being a junior AWA pilot my career expaectations didn't include a 3-4 year upgrade due to your attrition. On the other hand it didn't include a bump to the bottom of your furlough list (DOH integration) in case this thing tanks.

I know that an arbitrator will most likely decide our fates but I believe, when reasonable people come together they can come to an agreement. Hopefully that is still possible here.

I for one am hoping that this is still possible too. But with the AWA Merger
Comittee walking away from the table when their USAir counterparts started
in with there DOH diatrabe , how do we get them back to the table without either group "losing face"?

PHXFLYR

 

[Carl S.]

U only has one goal, and since they can not jump in front of each other on their lists(Mainline,MDA or CEL)they are trying to jump in front as many AWA pilots as possible during this intergration.
I only hope they keep the hardline stance thru mediation and go right into arbitration asking for DOH and every other restrictionon on AWA pilots they can think of( Widebody,Pacific flying). Then they will get worse than relative senority when the arbitrator rules that they were weeks from liqidation and beggars shouldn't be picky and be glad they are not pushing a broom at Home Depot.
The deal is what you bring to the table(i.e. active mainline flying jobs), everything else is a get to you later deal. If you fly a 737 or bigger actively now, you will stay there and when or if there are openings or layoffs then other pilots come into the picture if needed. All past projections of lofty expectations are that, expectations not realities and the past is the past and the future is the NEWCO and if you are a bottom feeder or top dog , thats were you are going to be.
By the way, when one pilot retires at NEWCO, every pilot on the list will move up one number who is below them, reguardless of their past background, race or sex. All non-rev will be DOH ( that is 9/27/05 and beyond for new hires) and I think it is sad that some of AWA bottom pilots may be close to a layoff if needed if they come, when before we were hiring 100+ a year and upgrading in 6+ years but these are the sacrifices we are making while the U pilots get a new lease on life and a $48,000 pension.

 

[Carl S.]

U only has one goal, and since they can not jump in front of each other on their lists(Mainline,MDA or CEL)they are trying to jump in front as many AWA pilots as possible during this intergration.
I only hope they keep the hardline stance thru mediation and go right into arbitration asking for DOH and every other restrictionon on AWA pilots they can think of( Widebody,Pacific flying). Then they will get worse than relative senority when the arbitrator rules that they were weeks from liqidation and beggars shouldn't be picky and be glad they are not pushing a broom at Home Depot.
The deal is what you bring to the table(i.e. active mainline flying jobs), everything else is a get to you later deal. If you fly a 737 or bigger actively now, you will stay there and when or if there are openings or layoffs then other pilots come into the picture if needed. All past projections of lofty expectations are that, expectations not realities and the past is the past and the future is the NEWCO and if you are a bottom feeder or top dog ,
thats were you are going to be.
By the way, when one pilot retires at NEWCO, every pilot on the list will move up one number who is below them, reguardless of their past background, race or sex. All non-rev will be DOH ( that is 9/27/05 and beyond for new hires) and I think it is sad that some of AWA bottom pilots may be close to a layoff if needed if they come, when before we were hiring 100+ a year and upgrading in 6+ years but these are the sacrifices we are making while the U pilots get a new lease on life and a $48,000 pension.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,



PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Please don't make me dig up the numerous posts from your guys here that blather all sorts of "to the bottom" and "stapling" remarks. It's all been you boys here on the ever entertaining flightinfo.com



Where you ever got the idea that your "stapling comment" is considered an appeasement to the AWA pilot group is beyond me. To blatantly come out and say that it what our pilot group wants is totally absurd,as are most of your posts on this webboard. What we were really hoping for was to hammer something out between the 2 merger committees at the negotiating table but I guess your team's call for DOH intergration and a permanent seat lock on all international flying INCLUDING the recently started service to HNL by AWA aircraft and crews put an end to any of that happening anytime soon. You guys never cease to amaze me.......

PHXFLYR

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

Look at it this way...

What is the career expectation of a furloughed AAA pilot right now? It is to be recalled at the bottom of the seniority list.

According to ALPA merger guidlines your career expectations should not be too negatively affected. If you get "stapled" to the bottom of the list at the new US Airways you will be recalled at the bottom of the new list. Therefore, nothing has changed for you.

The merger, according to ALPA policy, is not to result in any windfalls to either pilot group.

For you to be recalled above any AWA pilot is a windfall in the furloughs' favor. You would go from being on the street for x amount of years to being ahead of me on the seniority list. Give me a break. For all intents and purposes you aren't even on the seniority list right now.

My birthright? I could use the exact same word when describing your insistence that you be recalled and granted a higher seniority number than me...as if you think that it is your birthright to have seniority based on your AAA date of hire.

So when I want my seniority protected I'm whining about my birthright but when some AAA pilot wants his seniority protected he is fighting off the greedy AWA pilots??? I'd say you're a bit myopic.