AWA/ US Airways pilot seniority integration

[Formula1]

What is the latest with the integration and/or hiring of US Airways pilots (the 1900 or so furloughees)? I hear that on the AWA side of the fence they are running short on pilots and all of the reserves are flying alot. Is it getting this way on the US Airways side of things as well.

Is there going to come a point where the AWA side of the airline will have to use pilots from the remaining pool or off the street hiring to be able to have enough crews or will they offset the shortage (if one does exist) by utilizing the USAirways aircraft and crews to make up for the shortage until the method of integration has been determined.

Yes, some of you may say that this has been discussed in depth in the past- but it has not been discussedin a while.

I have talked to a few furloughed US Airways pilots at my present company and they have heard nothing or know nothing from the Airways MEC in regards to getting recalled. By the way- these guys are about to be furloughed again from my airline

I know that there is still alot going on behind the scenes, but you don't really hear much about this lately. Any AWA/US Airways guys care to comment on the latest info (if there is any).

Formula 1

 

[BeCareful!]

I heard that no hiring was going to happen until after the "integration" (or "stapeling") takes place.....May '06 or so.
This is in contrast to the earlier news that some hiring for the western side would come from recalls.

But it was just a rumor; my crystal ball, as well as my sources, are admittedly cloudy.

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

 

[Formula1]

BeCareful,

Is there a chance that the stapleing or merging of the lists will happen so soon? (Spring of 2006) I am definietly not privy to any of this info since I am not employed by either company but I had assumed that it would take alot longer than that?

Maybe you guys will hear more after the holiday season. I am assuming you are on the AWA side of the fence.

Formula1

 

[LearLove]

What is the latest with the integration and/or hiring of US Airways pilots (the 1900 or so furloughees)? I hear that on the AWA side of the fence they are running short on pilots and all of the reserves are flying alot. Is it getting this way on the US Airways side of things as well.

Is there going to come a point where the AWA side of the airline will have to use pilots from the remaining pool or off the street hiring to be able to have enough crews or will they offset the shortage (if one does exist) by utilizing the USAirways aircraft and crews to make up for the shortage until the method of integration has been determined.

Yes, some of you may say that this has been discussed in depth in the past- but it has not been discussedin a while.

I have talked to a few furloughed US Airways pilots at my present company and they have heard nothing or know nothing from the Airways MEC in regards to getting recalled. By the way- these guys are about to be furloughed again from my airline

I know that there is still alot going on behind the scenes, but you don't really hear much about this lately. Any AWA/US Airways guys care to comment on the latest info (if there is any).

Formula 1

The merger commette is working on it. We get updates almost every night via email. most sections of the contract are done except the all important one especially the integration. The DEC 19, 2005 Furlough list (APL) has just over 1600 guys on it. Several are still listed who have age 60 times out also. Also there are no about 30 former CEL guys (myself included) that make up that list since we were not able to "flow" back to PDT.

Last week we all recieved letters from the merger commette that had our employment DOH hire data. Mine shows my ALG 1999 DOH as now my US Airways DOH hwever I'm tacked on the bottom in CEL senority from the guys who came over to MDA. As more guys get furloughed from MDA the APL list will grow as the CEL guys left at MDA are added to the bottom.

As far as I understand it anyone employed at MDA at the time of the merger (sept29) is considered an active US Airways pilot for integration purposes. That is going to be interesting when it comes time to merge the lists. Guess we will see.

As far as call back, maybe what you are hearing is that AWA may need guys prior the the merging of the lists. They (the MECs) have agreed to take from the APL in senority order if that happens. So say they need 100 pilot at AWA this spring. Then the positions will be offered to the first 100 takers in the APL list. They will be AWA trained and come in at the bottom as AWA newhires but have thier U senority for pay and bennies. Once the pilot list merger takes place these guys would get their senority adjusted to whatever is agreed to.

Clear as Mud right??? There are many other cans of worms to this, especially wrt us MDA guys and our "outside" help (which reminds me I need to pay this month bill) . Like I said guess we will see, this should get interesting sometime early next year.

Merry Xmas

 

[USMC319]

You hear the "stapled" comment quite a bit. Who would be "stapled" to the bottom of who's list? FWIW, I think the stapling arguement is silly in this particular merger. Regardless of which company was stronger prior to the merger, neither had good chances of long-term survival without it.

 

[vetrider]

You hear the "stapled" comment quite a bit. Who would be "stapled" to the bottom of who's list? FWIW, I think the stapling arguement is silly in this particular merger. Regardless of which company was stronger prior to the merger, neither had good chances of long-term survival without it.

Noone is getting stapled, that is the domain of another airline, can't think of which one at the moment, though.

 

[Formula1]

This is all very interesting, this is the most information I have read in a long time on this subject.

Thanks for posting the info.

Formula 1

 

[xanderman]

well...

BeCareful,

Is there a chance that the stapleing or merging of the lists will happen so soon? (Spring of 2006) I am definietly not privy to any of this info since I am not employed by either company but I had assumed that it would take alot longer than that?

Maybe you guys will hear more after the holiday season. I am assuming you are on the AWA side of the fence.

Formula1

Formula,
Actually there is no such talk of a staple. At least on the AWA side. I suppose you could say that there is a "staple attitude" from our new relatives on the US side of the fence. As a matter of fact negotiations have been halted due to a "DOH and nothing less attitude" from our US counterparts. Sad really, to think that this is another opportunity to make something great and it has to get flushed because some dude thinks that his/her.... Well you know what I'm going to say so I'll save it. In reality we are proposing a relative seniority integration which would be fair and most equitable for the greatest number involved. Unfortunately not everyone can be included. I guess it comes down to every individual thinking that their job/life is more important than someone else's.... Myself included. In the end an arbitrator will decide how all this will go.

Just the biz I suppose...
Andy

P.S. to answer your question a PID was set Oct. 24th. So we have 180 days from this date to get our house in order (integrate the list) or (i believe) it goes straight to the arbitrator.

 

[furloughfodder]

Noone is getting stapled, that is the domain of another airline, can't think of which one at the moment, though.

I think I cAAn.

 

[xrated]

P.S. to answer your question a PID was set Oct. 24th. So we have 180 days from this date to get our house in order (integrate the list) or (i believe) it goes straight to the arbitrator.

I believe that 180 days includes arbitration, though its said they can take as little or as much time as it takes.

Due to the DOH stand at UsAir (shouldn't be a surprise to anyone) it is without much doubt it is in fact on its way to arbitration. Any talk about what we all think is going to happen is pointless since it will be up to the arbitrators to decide the fate of how seniority is integrated and who in fact will be on the list.

 

[xanderman]

I believe that 180 days includes arbitration, though its said they can take as little or as much time as it takes.

Due to the DOH stand at UsAir (shouldn't be a surprise to anyone) it is without much doubt it is in fact on its way to arbitration. Any talk about what we all think is going to happen is pointless since it will be up to the arbitrators to decide the fate of how seniority is integrated and who in fact will be on the list.

Yeah I agree. As far as the 180 days and what it includes, well, you are probably right. I am not really well versed in this stuff...
Andy

 

[Formula1]

I believe that 180 days includes arbitration, though its said they can take as little or as much time as it takes.

So- if it takes more time as opposed to less time to finish arbitration and more pilots are needed on either side of the fence- then what? Cancel flights, move flights from AWA to US Airways or vice versa?

I know it is all speculation on what is going to be the outcome and this issue has been speculated to death in the past but I just wanted to know where you guys were at with this issue at the present time.

Formula1

 

[Formula1]

Where is "Doug Parker" for this discussion? Not the real one, but the flightinfo.com "Doug Parker".

 

[xanderman]

T.a.

The transition agreement states that if more pilots are to be hired at the AWA side (which is all I can speak for) then the furloughed pilots from US will get first right of refusal on these openings. Last I heard AWA is going to need some more pilots this spring. Until it happens though it's nothing but rumor...
Andy

 

[BeCareful!]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

 

[TWA Dude]

We are definitely not short of pilots right now. Personal leaves of absence have been offered for the last four months. After seven months of being a junior lineholder I'm back on reserve in January. We're still experiencing negative growth with numerous East airplanes and a handful of West planes going away as scheduled. No update recently about hiring (recalling) plans.

As far as the integration talks there's obviously still a wide gap between the sides and I see no point in debating the differences of opinon. USA wants DOH and AWA wants some king of ratio/relative seniority. Additionally, I've no doubt that the 150 day clock will be extended further if desired. Frankly I see no need to rush; it's the company that wants the integration and new CBA so it can realize it's "synergies".

 

[BeCareful!]

Frankly I see no need to rush; it's the company that wants the integration and new CBA so it can realize it's "synergies".

Good point, Dude....

Every time we rush something for the company they win and we loose.

 

[vetrider]

Good point, Dude....

Every time we rush something for the company they win and we loose.

Ditto from a westerner.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Formula1,

I'm in the East. The "stapled" thing is the strong opinion of the frequent West posters here that furloughed pilots will (or should) be stapled. They believe it's their birthright to have a 1600 pilot furlough cushion below them plus a head start on the wild run up the seniority list that has mostly uEast retirements in front of them. Sad, the selfish attitudes displayed here.

Merry Christmas!

Oh,give it a rest already,will you please? The only ones who are talking about getting stapled are furloughed USAir guys like yourself. The arbitrator will assign everyone new senority numbers. If you are furloughed you will remain on furlough status with your new senority number and will get recalled in senority order when positions become available at the 'new and improved' USAirways. At that point you will be slotted in at whatever position your new senority number can hold . Quit feeling sorry for yourself......oh, and Merry Christmas.


PHXFLYR

 

[m80drvr]

Hey Lear Love

Are you saying that a mda guy that was on property the day the merger announcement was made is considered as "active" USAir pilot, therefore they get recall in front on a furloughed pilot who didn't go to mda?

Didn't a judge just rule on this?

I'm just asking because I don't know the answer, and unless I missed something from US west management has no idea about this, Not that it is any of their business, but Parker was asked about this last week in PHL and had no idea.

It will be an interesting battle at US east if MDA guys think they should get recalled before their senior "brothers".

I'm not trying to bait you' I'm just trying to sort this crap out. I'm so far down the list I can't see daylight at noon so it will be a long time before it gets to me.

D



PS. Be careful, I agree with phxflyr, the only talk about stapeling is on the USAir side as far as I can tell, and I run into BOTH crews regularly.

 

[k9nole]

I'm not trying to bait you' I'm just trying to sort this crap out. I'm so far down the list I can't see daylight at noon so it will be a long time before it gets to me.

You might be closer than you think. About 25% of JetBlue is furloughed USAir pilots that have no interest in USAirways recall, myself included.

I'd say atleast 60% of JB consists of NW, United, USAirways and Independence furloughed pilots.

FWIW, this month I was flying with a pilot that turned down recall to United.

 

[LearLove]

You might be closer than you think. About 25% of JetBlue is furloughed USAir pilots that have no interest in USAirways recall, myself included.

I'd say atleast 60% of JB consists of NW, United, USAirways and Independence furloughed pilots.

FWIW, this month I was flying with a pilot that turned down recall to United.

But never say never in this bizz. I would highly doubt what I'm about to say, but (as JetBlue has a great product, if not the best in the industry which should sustain them in the hard times ) I bet thoes guys would jump ship if they get a recall in 5 years and somehow JB is on the rocks.

I would and do totally agree with what your saying on the fact that these guys will stay at JB if recalled but like we all know.... who knows what the situation will be in 5 years or whatever time frame.

 

[LearLove]

Hey Lear Love

Are you saying that a mda guy that was on property the day the merger announcement was made is considered as "active" USAir pilot, therefore they get recall in front on a furloughed pilot who didn't go to mda?

Didn't a judge just rule on this?

I'm just asking because I don't know the answer, and unless I missed something from US west management has no idea about this, Not that it is any of their business, but Parker was asked about this last week in PHL and had no idea.

It will be an interesting battle at US east if MDA guys think they should get recalled before their senior "brothers".

I'm not trying to bait you' I'm just trying to sort this crap out. I'm so far down the list I can't see daylight at noon so it will be a long time before it gets to me.

D



PS. Be careful, I agree with phxflyr, the only talk about stapeling is on the USAir side as far as I can tell, and I run into BOTH crews regularly.

Yeah I had a feeling that might cause some heart burn around and i didn't mean it that way, just too lazy to write a full post between rest peroids during this Italian Xmas Eve 7+ course dinner right now. I can say I'm all fished out about now.

If I'm not mistaken the act of getting us considered active mainline is not to jump senority for integration or recall but to fight the "other fight" the MDA gang has going right now. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Widow's Son]

I think the integration issue will come down to whatever is the cheapest training wise, which will mean everyone stay in their current airplane and seat for a long time.
I think the pilots will be a cakewalk compared to the mechanics.

 

[BeCareful!]

PS. Be careful, I agree with phxflyr, the only talk about stapeling is on the USAir side as far as I can tell, and I run into BOTH crews regularly.

Hi, md80drvr and PHXFLYR,

The stapling talk has been mostly on this board, and it's come almost exclusively from what appears to be junior AWA people (no names needed.) In the real world, far from the anonymity and childishness of this Internet site, people are typically more reasonable and civilized. If you guys are hearing stapling talk from real live US Air folks, that's news to me. No one here feels as if that is warranted or fair. Massive speed bump notwithstanding, our careers at U going forward were never in question.....no matter what it looked like on the outside or in the freekin' newspapers.

PHX, I more or less put the stapling comment in my first post to appease your camp; let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

Please don't make me dig up the numerous posts from your guys here that blather all sorts of "to the bottom" and "stapling" remarks. It's all been you boys here on the ever entertaining flightinfo.com

In any event, time to hit the sack. I sleep quite well these days

Y'all take care, have a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Be Careful for god's sake.......always good advice

Later

 

[xanderman]

let's face it, though, it's what you guys would like concerning the junior US Air guys (who are currently furloughed although many of us are serving the company as captains in CRJ's....an unprecedented situation in ALPA history, I believe.)

I know why you feel the way you do but tell me, how do you arrive at the conclusion that you somehow deserve to be placed ahead of an active pilot flying for AWA.

You have consistently communicated that simply because you were hired at US in 19XX you deserve to be placed on top of active AWA pilots. I think your stance is wrong. Never-the-less you are entitled to you opinion.

If you would respond by asking why do I feel I should maintain my relative seniority and you remain on the bottom of the newly combined list my response in short is this: Equity. What did me and my fellow pilots and my company bring to the table? I suppose you might ask yourself this question. Was any other company looking to jump into bed with US? Were there any other outside investors looking to pour more money into your company(without AWA in the equation)?
Andy

 

[TWA Dude]

I think the integration issue will come down to whatever is the cheapest training wise, which will mean everyone stay in their current airplane and seat for a long time.

That's a given; there will be no bump-and-flush regardless. Even a staple job (either side) with tall fences would prevent that. The issue is if there are more furloughs: will one side take the pain or will it be shared? The merger committees and mediator/arbitrator know all about this. Stay tuned.

 

[A350]

xanderman:

Speaking of equity.....I don't recall anyone throwing any money AWA's way, other than the ATSB. Since both U and AWA received loans, I'd say they were about equal.

If there was a need, it was in both camps to "merge". If you think that AWA would have been in very good shape "alone" then why was your management so for it?

Lastly, remember the reductions in U aircraft was greatly in part to the fact that U was within the confines of Chapter 11 and they could easily dispose of equipment. It was driven by the economics of that situation. In other words, U jobs were put on the chopping block for YOUR future gain.

Just wait for the arbitrator to rule. Then the complaining can begin.

A350

 

[typhoonpilot]

This is always entertaining to read and really pointless to talk about since it will be decided by an arbitrator in the end, but for arguments sake let me point this out. The AWA guys want a relative seniority merger. They believe that is fair since it would not harm them in any way. What they don't say, but secretly know in their hearts, is that it would be like winning the lottery for any AWA guy who is age 45 or under. In ten years the great majority of the active USAirways pilots will be gone thus giving the remaining AWA pilots a huge windfall. It would be like your airline deciding to buy 220 airplanes and place them in service over the next ten years. That is phenomenal career progression for young AWA pilots.

The current USAirways pilots who are junior F.O.s will never make captain in this scenario (and remember,every last one of them could have held captain previously). They will retire as first officers with all that entails. They will never realize the career progression that they should have with the projected USAirways retirements and be stuck behind young AWA pilots for the remainder of their career.

This is obviously a bitter subject with those who would be placed in this position if a relative merger seniority integration would go forward.

The best answer is for a compromise. It is impossile to make everybody happy, but a compromise solution that involves fences would protect both sides. The AWA guys should always be able to enjoy seniority in PHX, LAS, or other AWA cities while the UAIR guys should always be able to enjoy seniority on the east coast and for any trans-Atlantic flying. There is a workable solution to this and I hope that it can be found for the benefit of both sides.

Just for what it is worth, the synergy that is talked about as a reason for the merger has already shown up in the form of Hawaii routes. AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again. It should be successful this time now that the cachement area of the entire eastern seaboard is included in the equation.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

TP

 

[TWA Dude]

What they don't say, but secretly know in their hearts, is that it would be like winning the lottery for any AWA guy who is age 45 or under. In ten years the great majority of the active USAirways pilots will be gone thus giving the remaining AWA pilots a huge windfall.

Well, I recall a few TWA types who thought they'd/we'd won the lottery when the AA buyout was announced. Funny how things didn't work out that way. In fact, it's funny in general how predictions for the future don't always pan out. It's certainly true that the demographics favor the younger AWA in the future but that's not the only consideration. As I've written a number of times, what about a reduction in force/furlough? Some form of shared pain is logical. A pure DOH integration puts the next 1500 or so furloughs purely from the AWA side. Your simplification of the issues does nobody any good.

AWA tried and failed to fly Hawaii routes many years ago. It is only because of the additonal east coast feed and UAIR frequent flyers that the route can now be tried again.

You're mistaken. Our Hawaii routes were planned from before the USA merger announcement.