AWA/AAA negotiations update

[PositiveRate]

"Also on Wednesday, we entered into a philosophical discussion between the two sets of JNC representatives and management regarding the process for moving this negotiation to completion. Management indicated that this process was not advancing us toward a conclusion and suggested that we jointly apply for mediation as provided for under the Transition Agreement (although the TA does not require a joint request for mediation). We indicated our interest in proceeding to mediation while Captain Stephan spoke on behalf of the East MEC and indicated that his MEC was not interested in anything that would advance the implementation of the Nicolau Award. Management also indicated that the East MEC’s notion that separate and permanent contracts for the two pilot groups, as expressed in a recent East MEC Resolution, was not what management had in mind when they discussed a temporary period of separate operations. In fact, management claimed that the East resolution was in violation of the Transition Agreement. "

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Its obvious to me that the company is finally losing patience with this, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Hpilot]

Yes, if the East keeps this up it may bring good things for us and dire consequences for them. It's two bad because not all of the East pilots are scumbags. I think they're being led onto the train tracks by a minority.

 

[JT8D]

Yes, if the East keeps this up it may bring good things for us and dire consequences for them.

This thread is pure propaganda...and this statement is laughable.

 

[ferlo]

This thread is pure propaganda...and this statement is laughable.

The fact that the BOD isn't going to let East Co-pilots hijak a multi billion dollar merger isn't laughable. They have legal obligations to their investors and they will do whatever it takes to get the job done.

They're proclaim some kind of internal "force majeur" and do what they want.

The Court system will never back ALPA...it never does. They own the airline, they have all the cards, and they will win.

The East coast and ALPA national, if Prater doesn't grow a set, are all going to get their as-es handed to them, (once again). The company has made it clear that this issue is now on the radar scope and put everybody on notice.

At this point, the laughable idea is the notion that ALPA has is capable of influencing jack sh-t.

 

[The Victors]

Ya. That should work. Force those east guys to do what you want. oh ya. see no problems there.

 

[JT8D]

They're proclaim some kind of internal "force majeur" and do what they want.

First off you're making stuff up now. Secondly...how do you make someone go to work?

The company has made it clear that this issue is now on the radar scope and put everybody on notice.

They're not too quick on the uptake if it is just now getting "on the radar scope".

At this point, the laughable idea is the notion that ALPA has is capable of influencing jack sh-t.

I don't know if you follow current events or not, but trying to decertify ALPA as their union makes it pretty clear (in my book anyway) that the east feels it doesn't need ALPA.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

The company was trying for a soft landing to help the East guys cope with the merger. The rationality was that East had been through so much that it was the company's job to not make this tough on them... OOPS!

First off you're making stuff up now. Secondly...how do you make someone go to work?

If the East does not bargain in good faith and obstructs negotiations, the company has recourse through the NMB. The very fact that Mgmnt suggested mediations shows that even they understand the East is there in body only and they've now started a trail for legal action down the road.

The BK judge sure made the NWA FA's go to work.... The company will win in court,

 

[JT8D]

The BK judge sure made the NWA FA's go to work.... The company will win in court,

The company was in Bankruptcy. BK laws are very clear as they pertain to labor and the protection of the company/and or assets...the BK judge essentially had no choice...complete apples and oranges comparison.

 

[ferlo]

Ya. That should work. Force those east guys to do what you want. oh ya. see no problems there.

You're right, if the last 6 years has proven anything it's that labor is in the drivers seat. What was I thinking.

 

[eaglefly]

The East MEC can stall and drag this for only a relatively short time.

Ultimately, corporate interests will overrule the East MEC and another unpleasant situation will be forced upon them.

I suppose at that point they could all resign enmasse, but in the eyes of the corporation, that is survivable and would allow them to move forward.

The East MEC WILL (with absolute certainty) lose the fight of impeading unification of the carriers.

An absolute certainty of loss for them.

 

[TWA Dude]

I say let the Easties shoot themselves in the foot (again). Let's see if the decert drive works (my guess is no). Let's see if the company just sits back idly while the East refuses to negotiate in the JNC (my guess is no). Let's see if they burn the place down when they still don't get what they demand (my guess is no). My hope is that good sense will eventually prevail and I'm willing to wait. Their extortion attempt will fail.

 

[PositiveRate]

We can blah blah all we want, but this will probably get ironed out to EVERYONE's disliking sooner than later.

It just sucks being stuck on the roller coaster when we could be much closer to a real contract and real gains for both sides.

Here's something nice about an eastie...hat's off to this guy. Is it 5 chest, 2 breath, or 15 chest, 1 breath...? Looks like he figured it out.

A couple days old...of course, no one ever posts good stuff like this....


"This morning at DCA a US Airways passenger experienced a massive heart attack while waiting at a security checkpoint. US Airways First Officer Phillip Cote, assisted by two TSA employees, leapt into action and immediately began CPR. Paramedics arrived and transported the passenger to the hospital. Thanks to FO Phillip Cote’s immediate actions the customer’s life was saved!"

 

[iflyhigh]

To all:

Parker met in PHX with the pilots Wednesday.

Toward the end of the meeting he basically, in a round about way stated:

One, he is not going to run the airline with two different pilot contracts.

Two: If he has to use the NMB he hopes all three sides agree to go, like IAM is doing.

Three: In a round about way he stated he is tired of the hard lines being drawn in the sand and that this is only put more friction between the two groups. Reading between the lines he also stated that there might have to be provisions put in the contract to protect the east guys. Now he did not go as far as what to put in the contract, but you could tell this comment was directed at the West MEC, since the West is the group stating we want nothing to do with seniority in the contract, the award is the award. (The West MEC was in attendance at this get together.)

Time will tell how all this plays out. But from Parkers comments he wants to get this contract moving forward.

 

[Hpilot]

This thread is pure propaganda...and this statement is laughable.

What's laughable is that you think you're in charge. Get a clue, you're not.

 

[Hpilot]

To all:

Parker met in PHX with the pilots Wednesday.

Toward the end of the meeting he basically, in a round about way stated:

One, he is not going to run the airline with two different pilot contracts.

Two: If he has to use the NMB he hopes all three sides agree to go, like IAM is doing.

Three: In a round about way he stated he is tired of the hard lines being drawn in the sand and that this is only put more friction between the two groups. Reading between the lines he also stated that there might have to be provisions put in the contract to protect the east guys. Now he did not go as far as what to put in the contract, but you could tell this comment was directed at the West MEC, since the West is the group stating we want nothing to do with seniority in the contract, the award is the award. (The West MEC was in attendance at this get together.)

Time will tell how all this plays out. But from Parkers comments he wants to get this contract moving forward.

I agree. Parker would like to see the west agree to fences. The most the east could realistically hope for though is 3-4 yrs. This is because the longest they can hold it up in court for is 2-5 years and we know it. I doubt this is good enough for the east however which will leave Parker no choice but to continue with the plan that is currently in the works.

 

[TWA Dude]

I say we should definitely negotiate some additional fence provisions for the East -- after they stop holding the joint negotiations hostage and drop the nuisance suit.

 

[AutoBus]

I say we should definitely negotiate some additional fence provisions for the East -- after they stop holding the joint negotiations hostage and drop the nuisance suit.

Ok let's see.

1. we tried to negotiate a senority list

2. Then we tried to mediate a senority list.

3. Then we went to arbitration, and then arbitrator effectively picked a position between the two extremes. East DOH and West aircraft on order growth arguement. A compromise.

4. The East is unhappy because they did not get DOH (which by the way is not part of the current merger policy) and instead got a relative senoirty integration (which is Alpa merger policy) an arbitration awarded by one of the most expierenced and respected arbitrators in the country (hey both sides agreed to him)

5. Now the West is being asked to compromise again? what? shall we give the east 75% of what they want because they are uncooperative cry babies? and we get stuck with 25%

6. compromise only works when both sides have something to offer, the East is not offering anything! all they have is demands. Until they offer something significant then there really is no discussion.

7. The West pilot's don't intend on "taking one for team!"

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Dude, I want a raise. I want a competitive company. I want a national union that follows its own bylaws. These guys are hurting us all.

How many Westies could give a crap about the East?

You ever try to take the bowl away from a cat and have the damn thing growl and swing at you even though the reason you're taking the bowl is to put more food in it?

That my friends is the East Coast USAirways pilot group in a nutshell... "I don't want a raise, I don't want better work rules, I don't want a stable company, I want my name on a list higher up than that young guy at AWA.

 

[TWA Dude]

7. The West pilot's don't intend on "taking one for team!"

Easy, killer. I said "negotiate", which means a give-and-take as opposed to unilateral concessions. Without a gun to our head we can talk. Of course, conducting negotiations is no guarantee of success.

 

[Hpilot]

I say we wait about a year. That way Doug may be forced to act on his backup plan and we won't have to worry about the East. If he doesn't, we'll at least be 1 year closer to the lawsuit being tossed and the weasels running the east will be more apt to find a back door to run out.

 

[PositiveRate]

The tantrum is being thrown in a pond of quick sand...unfortunately, we are tied to the screaming baby.

It's ashame that the old America West has been killed by the destructive culture of US Airways. I blame this more on our management's pu$$y foot techniques. The more they tried to assuage the beaten down troops out East, the more they faned the fire. Now the house is burning, everyone is miserable and there is all sorts of blame to toss around. They had one chance to make this a labor friendly airline, and they have officially pissed it away. Apparently they disagree with Keller and his "employees first, customers second, shareholders third" mantra.

You're starting to see management stir on this. F'in Stephan thinks he can keep his side separate, but he forgets he collects a paycheck, he doesn't write them. The farther this goes, the slimer the chances for real contract results get.

Who wants to send in their app? We're hiring!

 

[AutoBus]

That my friends is the East Coast USAirways pilot group in a nutshell... "I don't want a raise, I don't want better work rules, I don't want a stable company, I want my name on a list higher up than that young guy at AWA.

Indeed that is what they want, the arbitrator said nope,

 

[PositiveRate]

1. JOINT NEGOTIATIONS

MYTH: The Company can run separate operations forever or at least for a long time.

FACT: Last week during JNC talks, management clearly stated that this was not their intent. Doug Parker reiterated that message yesterday at the Crew News session in PHX. Management will likely continue to state this when they speak with East and West crewmembers.

FACT: Senior management has stated that they will gain at least $10 million more a year in synergies with perhaps more to be gained in the area of intangibles by merging operations. A single FAA certificate is expected by September 25, 2007.

FACT: We believe that the Company’s ability to obtain favorable financing for another airline merger is likely influenced by the ability to successfully complete this merger.

FACT: Senior management has stated publicly that it is their goal to eventually obtain a joint agreement, even though they know that will increase their costs significantly.


MYTH: The Company supports re-negotiation of the Nicolau Award.

FACT: The Company has repeatedly stated publicly that if the seniority list that is presented to management meets the criteria agreed to in the Transition Agreement, they will accept it. Management does not have any intention of getting involved in the complex legal dispute underway. They see this as an ALPA matter.


MYTH: The Rice Committee supports a separate operations path for negotiations.

FACT: Although the Rice Committee suggested that separate operations is one of three potential options for the America West and US Airways pilots to explore, the Committee is only interested in exploring “consensual approaches.” The America West MEC does not consider the permanent or long-term separate operations path “consensual” at this time. We are in concurrence with management that permanent separate operations is not a stated goal of, nor permissible under, the Transition Agreement that all three parties agreed upon.

FACT: Senior management has stated that they will not reach a separate operations agreement with the US Airways MEC without the concurrence of the West. Management further indicated that if all parties entered into such an agreement, it would be for a limited time, not permanent as some have suggested.

FACT: The Rice Committee can only make suggestions, and cannot unilaterally impose any agreement on either MEC.


MYTH: The America West MEC approached management and relayed that the America West pilots would be outraged if the East pilots were granted parity thus generating a lot of ill will between the pilot groups.

FACT: In a recent Chairman’s Message, AWA MEC Chairman John McIlvenna stated, “When it had come to our attention that the US Airways MEC directed their officers to contact management in order to obtain immediate contractual parity with us, we immediately ensured that management understood that the West pilots would be outraged if the East was granted parity while continuing to hold us hostage over the seniority list.” This myth is nothing more than an attempt by some to purposefully take Captain McIlvenna’s comments out of context and spin them to suit their own political agenda, protect their own political interests, and sow dissent.

FACT: Both MECs agreed, in writing through the Transition Agreement, that East parity would be supported through joint negotiations. The America West MEC has always supported (and continues to support) East parity “plus” through a joint contract as opposed to their right to enter Section 6 negotiations in December 2009.

FACT: The costs of the two pilot groups to the Company are similar when measured on a cost per block hour basis. The disparate pay scales are offset by the disparate average longevity. Therefore, if the East pilots were paid America West narrowbody rates, the America West pilots would now become the “B-scale” group, creating potentials for whipsawing.

FACT: All parties to the Transition Agreement are bound to negotiate a single agreement or an America West Section 6 agreement. Presently, management has stated repeatedly that they want a consensual three-way agreement. Until such time as either all parties agree to abandon the single agreement requirement or we enter into our own Section 6 negotiations, no party has the right to discontinue that process.

FACT: The US Airways MEC continues to adopt hard-line, unworkable approaches such as permanent separate operations, and when they are unable to gain traction, they try to put political pressure on our pilots and on our leadership to discover weaknesses in our resolve.

FACT: The AWA MEC has always recognized that both MECs and pilot groups have maintained their rights to ratify any joint agreement. We will continue to work with management, the Rice Committee, and anyone else to find ways to achieve a consensual approach to securing a Tentative Agreement that we can present to our pilots for successful ratification.

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2. EAST / WEST MEC ISSUES

MYTH: The US Airways MEC means no harm to America West pilots or the America West MEC.

FACT: The US Airways MEC continues to insist upon a date-of-hire seniority integration. This integration method would essentially staple most America West pilots (including many captains) below their furloughed pilots who had no expectation of a career absent this merger. This approach would also provide the US Airways pilots with most of the promotional opportunities and protect all US Airways pilots from furlough at the America West pilots’ expense.

FACT: The America West MEC sacrificed time, money, and our negotiating pace to support the East MEC’s fight over space positive travel for union officials. The Company recently tendered a Settlement LOU that satisfies every request made by the US Airways MEC. The US Airways MEC refused the proposal and sent back a counter proposal that, among other things, excluded the America West MEC from obtaining similar benefits.

FACT: The US Airways MEC passed a resolution to prevent America West pilots from reserving jumpseats on our own aircraft.

FACT: The US Airways MEC passed a resolution to maintain permanent separate operations in an attempt to upgrade and grow at the West’s expense.

FACT: The US Airways MEC filed a lawsuit against the America West MEC.


MYTH: The America West MEC intends harm to the US Airways pilots.

FACT: The America West MEC took a tremendous amount of political heat from the America West rank-and-file pilots for not pursuing a “staple job” integration method. It would have been easier politically for the America West MEC to adopt a hard-line “staple” position and then blame the arbitrator when it didn’t materialize in the arbitration award.

FACT: The America West MEC recognizes that the majority of benefits of ANY joint contract will fall to the East pilots. Under the current pay proposal of the Joint Negotiating Committee, more than 80 percent of the pay increases will go to the East pilots.

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[PositiveRate]

3. Transition Agreement

MYTH: The Company is in violation of the TA in that they are now having the East perform "cross-country" type of flying.

FACT :The TA is specific in that the Mississippi River is only a wall for flying as it pertains to Hawaii, Europe, and the Caribbean. The specific language in Section II.B.4.e. states:

The current and announced flying, as of the effective date of this agreement, between points west of the Mississippi River and the State of Hawaii will be flown by America West pilots. The current and announced flying, as of the effective date of this agreement, between points east of the Mississippi River and Europe or the Caribbean will be flown by US Airways pilots. Notwithstanding the above, up to two daily round trips to Europe, up to two daily round trips to the Caribbean, and one daily round trip to Hawaii may be flown by pilots of the other airline.

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4. COMPANY FINANCIAL CONDITION

MYTH: LCC’s second quarter results demonstrated once again that US Airways is providing the profits and covering the losses of America West.

FACT: Those reported figures are not necessarily representative of the actual independent revenues and costs of each side of the operation.

FACT: It’s usually important to the Company (and investors) that the surviving side of the operation show good financial performance.

FACT: From the SEC 10-Q filing:

The operating expenses of AWA reflect expenses for certain services shared with US Airways. During the first six months of 2007, in anticipation of merging to a single operating certificate, operations of AWA and US Airways continued to be integrated, including the migration to a single reservation system in early March. During the second quarter and first six months of 2007, shared services included reservations, technology and data processing services and corporate functions such as tax, legal, compliance.

FACT: The Company’s recent filing has nothing to do with our collective objective of securing a fair contract for all America West and US Airways pilots.

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[ferlo]

I love the "Rice Committee" giving suggestions...like they have a say in anything. If I were a Westie, I'd be leaning full force on my Union to give those ALPA cowards an ultimatum followed by a raft of lawsuits.

No more talk, present the list

 

[BeCareful!]

MYTH: AWA pilots were the hard-working, well-intentioned sky masters of this industry who's prospects were so bright they had to fly with sunshades in the windscreen even at night. They never wanted this merger because they were about to buy a bunch of wide bodies and take over the world.

FACT: West pilots' $*** actually does smell bad and they are understandably excited about the windfall they've nearly bagged.

Why isn't that enough? You guys should just relax and wait this one out, because, as noted, ALPA ain't going to be effective in settling this one. Let it go....

 

[PositiveRate]

Are you for real?

The AWA pilot group has never claimed anything beyond the realities of the situation. We have consistently CHOSEN to be reasonable and never wished anything above a fair shake for ourselves. The East has consistently CHOSEN to take a position that would HARM the West...

We have bent over backwards to be reasonable at nearly every turn. See the positive space travel debacle as a perfect example of reasonable vs unreasonable.

We have watched our airline, which was once a decent and laid back place turn into a $hit storm of labor strife. Blame for this lays mostly with management who are afraid of their own shadow...(they seem to be shaking this stance) But the East have taken full advantage of this in attempt to re-write history and merger policy to their liking. Your arrogance is staggering.

We have fairly participated in a process that was clearly outlined, understood and agreed to by all involved.

We are thought of as "lessor" by the US East pilot leadership at a minimum. Arrogance begets this. See above comment about CHOICE.

The windfall argument is a self justification for taking the low road. It makes you feel righteous having an "enemy" (award and the West windfall) to fight against so that you can continue to live in your fantasy world where you have some semblance of control. Karma...

You sensationalists can only see East vs. West and Win vs. Lose. If you look at the comments from the West, you'll see us pushing for reason and for the correct kind of fight - against management for a contract that is long overdue to both sides. We don't wish you harm...we're not here to raid your airline...we want a solution that's best for all. You want a solution that's best for you. Infer what you will.

 

[PositiveRate]

This is another good illustration of how the East paints reality to suit their agenda.

East Propaganda​

“Definition of a windfall: The total number of Captain years transferred from US Airways pilots to America West pilots is 4,463 years.”

We have heard this over and over from the East and these numbers are intentionally inaccurate and a reflection of the East’s over-reaching attempt to win public support for their outrage.

The East implies that implementing the arbitration award would result in the transfer of 4,463 Captain years to the America West pilots. What they fail to mention is how they determined this figure and the unrealistic presumptions that it considers.

Presumption #1
All East pilots have and will bid strictly for the highest pay position in any base their seniority can hold without regard to line status or other quality of life issues.

Reality
This type of strict bidding does not exist. For example, the East is recalling furloughees into the right seat of the A330, the highest paid equipment on the property. Many other pilots have and will choose to remain senior in their first officer position until they are able to hold a line or a domicile that they desire

Presumption #2
All West pilots will immediately bid upgrade positions in the East system.

Reality
As already evidenced by bidding patterns not only on the West, but the other major multi-domicile airlines, pilots do not strictly bid for the highest paid position at the expense of a long commute, crash pad and reserve schedule.

The transfer of Captain years is additionally inflated to compensate for the already out of seniority positions of the two separate seniority list. It is based on a strict form of “stove-pipe” bidding where EVERY pilot always bids for the highest pay position and that creates the waterfall of vacancies. This does not exist on either property and the 4,463 Captain years reflect the theoretical adjustment that is required to exercise this concept.

 

[weasel_lips]

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