Avantair

[Ill Mitch]

Haven't seen much about Avantair lately. Just wondering if anything new (rumor or real) is going down these days.

 

[Dilligaff]

Management has been talking about pay raises and better work rules for us. Very little action, mostly talk. FO's got a pay raise and per diem went up, other than that it's been quiet. I'm starting to wonder if they were serious about any of this or were they just blowing smoke up our outflow valves to thwart the union drive? Time will tell. Hey Mav, what's the number of that truck driving school?

Dilligaff

 

[On Your Six]

Management has been talking about pay raises and better work rules for us. Very little action, mostly talk. FO's got a pay raise and per diem went up, other than that it's been quiet. I'm starting to wonder if they were serious about any of this or were they just blowing smoke up our outflow valves to thwart the union drive? Time will tell. Hey Mav, what's the number of that truck driving school?

Dilligaff

Do you guys have many people leaving for the other frax like NJA and CS? I would assume that having fractional experience at Avantair would be advantageous when applying to NJA? When pilots leave Avantair, do most go to the other frax or to 121?

I would imagine that your management would want to make staying more appealing (better pay, QOL, etc.) to at least reduce their training costs...

 

[netjetwife]

Hey Mav, what's the number of that truck driving school?

While that line was funny in the movie Top Gun, in real life it is no laughing matter. Truck drivers should never make more than pilots, but some do. I don't even want to think about how many. It makes my blood boil. Avantair managers are like many others. They'll toss out some crumbs to placate the crowd, and then return to feast at their golden table. Corporate greed is alive and well. Do you really think the pax would not be shocked to learn that their pilot(s) make less than a truck driver? Why don't we know the salaries of management? Someone's laughing all the way to the bank, and funny lines notwithstanding, I don't think it's the pilots of Avantair.

 

[Hawkered]

Avantair: you fly the same kind of people in the same kind of weather. Your aircraft are just as "complex" as any turbofan...let's get you guys on our website and start a petition drive too.

 

[Ill Mitch]

Since it looks like the thread is heading that way (which is fine), what is the current pilot attitude towards a union? Is it gaining momentum, or is it just talk?
I am taking more of an interest in this as I have a buddy who just forwarded my resume to the powers that be. Yup, after talking about it for a couple of eons, I finally sent a resume out!

 

[angryoneincher]

Owner chat

Speaking of unions, this is interesting- an owner came up to the cockpit to chat just today. He asked me straight up how much we make, so I figured what the heck, why not tell him? He almost had a heart attack when he found out what we make, especially FO's. He was like, " I can't believe this. I was told during our sales chat that the pilots make in the vicinity of 80 or 90 grand." I just shook my head and didnt reply to that. Then he said, " Now I know why the Avantair pilots dont always seem too motivated. I wouldn't be even as nice as you guys are for the money you make." Need I say more, management pukes?

 

[netjetwife]

And is it any wonder that the company doesn't want the pilots telling the owners how bad the pay is....excuse me, (read with sarcasm) how much they're paid. They want the pilots to perpetuate the myth. Could it be that they're worried that the owners will ask for an accounting of how their management fees are being spent? They give the impression that the pilots are paid decently because they know that the owners would be shocked to learn the truth. You know your skills, but put yourself in the owner's place. How confident would you feel knowing that there are garbage collectors making more than your pilot? Rather frightening for those who believe that you get what you pay for!

 

[Dilligaff]

Since it looks like the thread is heading that way (which is fine), what is the current pilot attitude towards a union? Is it gaining momentum, or is it just talk?
I am taking more of an interest in this as I have a buddy who just forwarded my resume to the powers that be. Yup, after talking about it for a couple of eons, I finally sent a resume out!

Mitch,

It seems to me that the majority of the pilots would rather not have a union, but if management doesn't come through with their promises there will be more people sending in their union cards - mine is still sitting on my desk at home. If I don't see some action soon, I will drop it in the mail. Truthfully, I don't see anyone banging down the door to get out of here - yet.

The president of the company has been meeting with a few pilots to discuss the issues and he conducted on open conference call where we could all voice our opinions. A lot of good topics were discussed for about 2.5 hours - but there is still no follow through on management's part (new payscale was supposed to be announced several weeks ago). Pilots are starting to lose their patience.

Dilligaff

 

[Dilligaff]

NetJetWife,

Shouldn't you be hanging upside down in the attic?

Dilligaff

 

[StarHustler]

NetJetWife,

Shouldn't you be hanging upside down in the attic?

Dilligaff

OMG!! That is some funny Sheet!

 

[sikntired]

Geez Dill, that was cold.

Whether you like that NJW posts here or not, she probably has forgotten more about how to effectively build a Strong Union than you'll ever know.

Behind every pilot on this board there's probably a spouse or girlfriend 'livin the dream' at home, alone for half of the year. It's not an easy life, but it's the one we have chosen. So, the QOL issues, pay and scope are just as important to us as they are to you.

I know that many spouses and "significant others" were very instrumental and supportive of the Netjet pilots during their fight for a contract that ultimately raised the bar for all frac pilots. NJW was one of them and I only wish that I understood half of the aspects of this shell game that she understands.

If you think that your company's management is going to 'do the right thing' and willingly offer you the pay and protection that you rightfully earn, then hey, we'll be here to read about it.

I have a feeling that you're going to have to fight (legally) every step of the way. IBT 1108 has the road map and will guide you, if you ask. I'd send in that union card with a big, fat YES, if I were you.

Been there, done that,

sikntired

*by the way...we're on YOUR side

 

[P180puke]

I gotta ask...

Who's the bigger fool?

dilligaf for falling for the same a/v promises..(if you were here a year ago, it's a mirror image of what they did with the last union scare...in case you're wondering, nothing). Or netjetwife, who happened to play a part in large salary increases for their crew. Salary increases that avantair pilots are WISHING they had. Wishes and promises don't pay bills.

Think back how long ago that conference call was. Seen any extra on your check? Any better schedules or even seen any ot pay? Nah, me neither.

 

[Ill Mitch]

Mitch,

It seems to me that the majority of the pilots would rather not have a union, but if management doesn't come through with their promises there will be more people sending in their union cards - mine is still sitting on my desk at home. If I don't see some action soon, I will drop it in the mail. Truthfully, I don't see anyone banging down the door to get out of here - yet.

The president of the company has been meeting with a few pilots to discuss the issues and he conducted on open conference call where we could all voice our opinions. A lot of good topics were discussed for about 2.5 hours - but there is still no follow through on management's part (new payscale was supposed to be announced several weeks ago). Pilots are starting to lose their patience.

Dilligaff

D,

That pretty much mirrors what my friend told me. He is pretty pro-union, the only thing he trusts about management is they can't be trusted. But with Avantair he is taking a wait and see approach.

He was telling me the word from up top is that the 7/7 schedule is around the corner, but can't be done just yet due to pilot staffing. What is your take on this?

 

[Hawkered]

Then what are you all waiting for..get on with it! Send in your cards and show 'em you're serious!!

Let's Go Avantair!!!

Git 'r Done!

 

[P180puke]

D,

That pretty much mirrors what my friend told me. He is pretty pro-union, the only thing he trusts about management is they can't be trusted. But with Avantair he is taking a wait and see approach.

He was telling me the word from up top is that the 7/7 schedule is around the corner, but can't be done just yet due to pilot staffing. What is your take on this?

Word for word what they've said for YEARS.

 

[angryoneincher]

promises,promises

How many times do I have to say it? I've been with this company for a long time now- cant believe it, actually. But nothing has changed except for the line "We're working on it." Drop that card in the mail, guys. C'mon.

 

[netjetwife]

Angry, don't doubt for a minute that management IS "working on it". What the pilots don't get to hear, however, is WHAT they're working on. The truth is, they're working on their plans to keep paying the pilots as little as they can get away with, including your benefits. As long as you're flying the airplanes and the grumbling is low enough in volume not too disturb them, nothing will change. They're pros at stringing people along. Just look at how long the NJ pilots put up with it until they dug in their heels and followed the lead of SU. If the owners/managers of the frac companies had respect for pilots, they'd all have professional compensation packages and schedules that balanced their work and personal lives. QOL issues would be a company priority, not just a pilot concern. Nothing will improve at the frac companies until the pilots force management to meet their demands. Management sees no reason to change a system they find satisfactory. The promising statements they make are only to keep the complaints down and the status quo firmly in place. Until the pilots take a stand and fight back, their futures are as empty as those endless promises that are never delivered.

 

[netjetwife]

.....I know that many spouses and "significant others" were very instrumental and supportive of the Netjet pilots during their fight for a contract that ultimately raised the bar for all frac pilots... NJW was one of them and I only wish that I understood half of the aspects of this shell game that she understands. ...Been there, done that, sikntired *by the way...we're on YOUR side

What SNT modestly left out of her post is that she, too, is one of those spouses that went to Omaha to help the pilots make a stand. She may not follow each issue in detail, but she certainly has the big picture. Frac families know when the pilots are underpaid/overworked. SU leadership wisely tapped into the support structure the NJ families offered.

Smart people gather all the information they can when facing new challenges. They listen to those who have "been there, done that". Options leaders are spending a lot of time conferring with 1108. As the Flex pilots get further along in their battle, they'll be doing the same. The reason that we're on YOUR side is because we're all on the SAME side.

The frac pilots and their families are fighting for what they've earned because the companies won't deliver on their promises. They're calling in all those IOUs. When it comes time to send in that card, ask yourself which side you're on and vote accordingly.

 

[GEXDriver]

Geez Dill, that was cold.

Whether you like that NJW posts here or not, she probably has forgotten more about how to effectively build a Strong Union than you'll ever know.

Behind every pilot on this board there's probably a spouse or girlfriend 'livin the dream' at home, alone for half of the year. It's not an easy life, but it's the one we have chosen. So, the QOL issues, pay and scope are just as important to us as they are to you.

I know that many spouses and "significant others" were very instrumental and supportive of the Netjet pilots during their fight for a contract that ultimately raised the bar for all frac pilots. NJW was one of them and I only wish that I understood half of the aspects of this shell game that she understands.

If you think that your company's management is going to 'do the right thing' and willingly offer you the pay and protection that you rightfully earn, then hey, we'll be here to read about it.

I have a feeling that you're going to have to fight (legally) every step of the way. IBT 1108 has the road map and will guide you, if you ask. I'd send in that union card with a big, fat YES, if I were you.

You are incredibly naive if you think that NetJetsWife is anything other than a paid Teamster's union organizer who has created an elaborate fiction to support her/his activities on behalf of the union.

Hawkered is another. They both appear anytime there is an organizing effort then disappear when their propaganda efforts are no longer required.

 

[Grizz]

GEX -

You're an idiot. Netjetwife is exactly who she claims to be. A wife of one my closest friends at NetJets. There are a ton of NetJets pilots on here that know exactly who she is. Hell - PM me your phone number and I'll explain all the facts of life to you. Then you can go back to your Global Express as an enlightened idiot at least.

 

[angryoneincher]

Angry, don't doubt for a minute that management IS "working on it". What the pilots don't get to hear, however, is WHAT they're working on. The truth is, they're working on their plans to keep paying the pilots as little as they can get away with, including your benefits. As long as you're flying the airplanes and the grumbling is low enough in volume not too disturb them, nothing will change. They're pros at stringing people along. Just look at how long the NJ pilots put up with it until they dug in their heels and followed the lead of SU. If the owners/managers of the frac companies had respect for pilots, they'd all have professional compensation packages and schedules that balanced their work and personal lives. QOL issues would be a company priority, not just a pilot concern. Nothing will improve at the frac companies until the pilots force management to meet their demands. Management sees no reason to change a system they find satisfactory. The promising statements they make are only to keep the complaints down and the status quo firmly in place. Until the pilots take a stand and fight back, their futures are as empty as those endless promises that are never delivered.

you dont have to convince me

 

[Grizz]

By the way GEX -

Sikntired and netjetwife are both wives at Netjets and they are friends. What a tool.

 

[netjetwife]

Oh please, not again!

Obviously, you didn't do a search on my name. I suggest you read my early posts on this board, made before there was even an 1108 or SU. If you had bothered to do that, you'd know that Hawkered and I had plenty of posts made on the opposite sides of the NJ debate. He didn't have the benefit of the front row seat that I have, and was slower to believe that SU was really all that I bragged about. His strong support is a welcome surprise.

It is human nature to be excited about winning a hard fought battle. Actually, given the number of NJ pilots and their spouses, I'm surprised there aren't more of us posting here. Maybe they're all still busy buying new homes, cars, etc and treating themselves to a few of the nice things they went without while they fought for what they deserved. As for SNT, I first "met" her on the NJ board and became good friends when we formed an online support group for the spouses. We met in person at Omaha.

The NJ pilots know who I am and how involved my husband is. My absence from the board was explained. I was fighting a personal battle for justice. My family is waiting to see if the promises we were given by the prosecutor will be kept. That particular struggle is so heart-breaking that I use the union fight to renew my hope that uphill battles can be won. Go back and read some of my early posts and you'll find that I have been trying to get the other frac pilots to stand up for themselves long before the actual card drive began. I simply have strong convictions and don't mind speaking out about them. There are serious issues affecting real families.

A real wife with a serious interest,
LB/NJW

 

[avbug]

Then he said, " Now I know why the Avantair pilots dont always seem too motivated. I wouldn't be even as nice as you guys are for the money you make."

Regardless of what you're paid, if your clients are noticing that you aren't motivated, you have a problem.

Everybody would like more pay. You would like it. I would like it. Wouldn't we all? But having just read that post, I have to say I'm more than a little disgusted at the lack of professionalism that would lead a pilot to work for a company and not give his or her all. If clients are noting that pilots aren't performing at peak, then one can't blame the matter on management. If you are working at less than your best, either step it up and do your job as a professional, or get out and go somewhere else.

Keep plugging away for the benifits and wages you seek...I'll applaud you all the way. But do your job...you should be doing the same job you agreed to do, and were hired to do as a professional aviator, w(h)eather you're earning ten bucks a day or a thousand.

I've been involved in wage disputes and such issues before, when certainly the pay level could (and did) come up...but one constant for me has always been that added pay could never improve my performance. I was already doing my best, and paying me more couldn't make me perform better. I would be deeply ashamed if I learned that clients, customers, passengers, management, or fellow pilots believed I was performing sub par or acting at a lesser level...regardless of my pay, benifits, relations with mangement or the company, etc.

I see your point. You are making the point that things are bad enough even the customers get it. I get that. But one should be embarassed that the customers notice, because it means the pilots who get noticed aren't doing their job. Make your point with the company. Sign your cards, don't sign your cards. Complain, send letters, negotiate, bargain. Discuss. Do whatever you must to make yourself heard or accomplish your aims, as your conscience will allow...but if you're being paid to do a job, and you've agreed to do that job...do it and do your best.

I'm not part of your management, and my comments here don't represent a need nor desire to sway you to do this or that. I am posting because the comment detailed above disgusted me...that the client is noting a lack of "motivation," period. Be a professional. Fight for your cause, whatever it may be, but don't let that impact your craftsmanship, your ability to do your job.

You ARE a professional, are you not?

 

[GEXDriver]

You are incredibly naive if you think that NetJetsWife is anything other than a paid Teamster's union organizer who has created an elaborate fiction to support her/his activities on behalf of the union.

Hawkered is another. They both appear anytime there is an organizing effort then disappear when their propaganda efforts are no longer required.

...and of course, how could I have forgotten Grizz. As always setting the bar high with his combination of ad hominem attacks, general thuggery and attempted intimidation. No facts as usual, just unsupported allegations spoken loudly as if that makes them true.

The only thing surprising about you, Grizz, is that you're a former Air Force officer - most have more character.







.

 

[Grizz]

Yawn.

One thing they taught us in the Air Force was to face the facts when we're wrong. Obviously you haven't learned that yet. It's a shame.

My offer still stands, fire me a number big man and I'll call you. Hell - I'll three way you into netjetwife so you can actually talk to her. Of course, then you'd have to admit you're wrong. I'm betting you don't take me up on it knucklehead.

 

[netjetwife]

Avbug, being a professional pilot can be accomplished with or without a smile. Treating the pax politely can be done with or without motivation. I find it offensive that you'd get disgusted about a situation you weren't there to witness and don't have enough facts about to justify your critical attitude. Perhaps that particular pax was seeking information and appreciated the candid discussion he had with the pilots. It could be that his comments on motivation were based on his deeper knowledge of the situation and not on surface appearances.

During the NJ pilots contract battle I advised them to JUST EARN THE PAYCHECK. We all knew that didn't require much effort. If the company wants pilots that go above and beyond the basic requirements then they need to pay more attention to treating them respectfully and compensating them like the professionals they are. You claim not to be taking sides, but if the pilots followed your line of thinking the company would never have a reason to change their treatment of them. When astute pax observe that the pilots aren't pleased with the situation, that should reflect badly on management--not the pilots. Those pilots have every right to try to improve the place they're at rather than be forced to move on. Those who quit just prolong the problem, leaving fellow pilots to deal with the situation. Labor trouble causes low morale. Managers know that. If they're willing to risk pax noticing that the pilots aren't motivated, it's because they are failing at their job and are focused on short-term gain rather than long term productivity.

 

[netjetwife]

...and of course, how could I have forgotten Grizz. As always setting the bar high with his combination of ad hominem attacks, general thuggery and attempted intimidation. No facts as usual, just unsupported allegations spoken loudly as if that makes them true.

The only thing surprizing about you, Grizz, is that you're a former Air Force officer - most have more character.

What unsupported allegations? That we're friends? That Griz works closely with my husband? That he also knows Sickntired? Those are easy. We all met on the board and then in person at Omaha. Griz and my husband are both leaders in 1108. We all feel strongly about the issues we post about. Those who know us aren't surprised at all. Griz is just one of a number of former AF officers who have stepped up to lead the NJ pilots. No one in the group questions his character or dedication to the pilots AND their spouses.

 

[avbug]

Avbug, being a professional pilot can be accomplished with or without a smile. Treating the pax politely can be done with or without motivation. I find it offensive that you'd get disgusted about a situation you weren't there to witness and don't have enough facts about to justify your critical attitude.

Oh, NJW, my comments were never made regarding something I knew nothing about, nor regarding a situation whence I was never present. My comments, and my disgust (which offends you so greatly) are based strictly and only on what was posted here. We can only go by the words of the poster, and it is the words themelves which disgust. Beyond that, further affiant saith naught.

You advise others to do the minimum, to do their job. My advice and my condemnation is that those who do not do their utmost and their best are liars, cheats, and fools, and poor practioners of their craft. You take the job, you do your best, regardless of the pay. Period. Anything less is shear dishonesty. You adovcate dishonesty, do you?

During the NJ pilots contract battle I advised them to JUST EARN THE PAYCHECK. We all knew that didn't require much effort.

Do the minimum to get by. Don't stand out. Don't do your utmost, don't do your best. Not until they pay you more. Not until you get what you want. Be average. Do the minimum. Just do what you have to do to keep your job, nothing more...after all, why be a professional?

You call that a tactic. I call that dishonesty.