Avantair Union

[gunfyter]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

 

[gret]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He was quite articulate and interesting. Makes most of the individuals who are not brain washed...downright pikers.

 

[Praetorian]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He's here. Just got a new name.

 

[realityman]

I believe Avantair will now go out of business, just like Citation Air, and for the same reason. Now, while they are struggling, they have to deal with a union. This is good news for the other fractionals. There will be less competition.

And here is exactly what I've spoken about in another thread: Pilots eating their own.

Rather than simply say "Good luck Avantair pilots", we have another pilot indirectly telling the Avantair pilots that they should just shut up and take whatever management dishes out to them or YOU THE PILOTS will be responsible for your company's demise.

Who knows, maybe the Avantair pilots won't be able to negotiate a pay raise. but what if they can lock in some decent and SAFE work rules?

Every working group who can improve things, even a little bit, is a rising tide that helps EVERYONE in that industry. The more pilots who stand up and say "We aren't going to work for peanuts anymore, and we demand reasonable work rules!!!", the better off the entire industry is.

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

My long-winded point is, it's a shame people like G4dude can't just say good luck and I hope you make great improvements. Instead, he feels the need to spout off negativity. Maybe he truly believes what he's saying. But wouldn't it be better to simply wish them well in their efforts? Any advancement made in any area (pay, safety, work rules, etc...) could benefit us all.

Good luck Avantair pilots! I encountered the same kind of crap before '05 when we were trying to improve things at NJA. I even had our NJI folks tell me that we were going to ruin NJA if we pushed for all the improvements to our work rules and compensation we were looking for. Funny thing is, quite a few of those former NJI people are awful happy to have some of those protections they now enjoy under our CBA. Interesting how improvements for one group can benefit another later down the line.

Ignore the haters and go for what you think is right! Gutshotdraw has the right approach on this thread.

 

[brokeflyer]

what the idiot management people dont understand is, the owners WANT to pay the extra money provided they know it goes to the crew and not the ceo of the flight dept.

Do you think that person worth 400 million will go to Fargo medical center for their mitral valve repair because they're cheaper?

the pilot salaries are less than 5% of the expenses that go out. Its easier to crap all over the flight crew than it is to negotiate a cheaper price on a fleet of planes. And management can pay themslves huge bonuses for doing exactly nothing. that is why companies fail. The union protects the company from itself.

 

[X-rated]

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

 

[brokeflyer]

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

he was just using general numbers. it wasnt meant to be "this type of plane vs that type of plane". Use $2000/hr and his math is the same.

 

[gret]

what the idiot management people dont understand is, the owners WANT to pay the extra money provided they know it goes to the crew and not the ceo of the flight dept.

Do you think that person worth 400 million will go to Fargo medical center for their mitral valve repair because they're cheaper?

the pilot salaries are less than 5% of the expenses that go out. Its easier to crap all over the flight crew than it is to negotiate a cheaper price on a fleet of planes. And management can pay themslves huge bonuses for doing exactly nothing. that is why companies fail. The union protects the company from itself.

Sorry...owners don't want to pay their pilots more. They may want them to be paid very well, if someone else is picking up the tab and it doesn't cost them anymore.

The fact is that many aircraft owners will sell you down the river at the drop of a hat. You're not their wife, buddy, lawyer, accountant, banker, or therapist. Happens everyday.

 

[gret]

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

You're on point and what realtyman said should be the case, but it isn't. The people in the back watch every penny they spend and if they can save $$$$, they will.

Also, the owners have staff who take care of the $$$ and arrange most things for the big guy. These people are rewarded for watching their bosses money and they will find the best deal out there. They lose if they pay more than market.

 

[brokeflyer]

Sorry...owners don't want to pay their pilots more. They may want them to be paid very well, if someone else is picking up the tab and it doesn't cost them anymore.

The fact is that many aircraft owners will sell you down the river at the drop of a hat. You're not their wife, buddy, lawyer, accountant, banker, or therapist. Happens everyday.

that's not what i hear.