Avantair Union

[G4dude]

Make no mistake, if CA does go out of business, it will have done so due to poor business decisions, not the fact that a union was voted in. I don't know anything about Avantair, but I suspect the same there.


X

CA was in that financial state and still going. The union got voted in and immediately CA announced it would wind down its operations. Seems logical to assume one had everything to do with the other.

 

[Helmsalee]

Seems logical to you G. But then, you exist in a totally different dimension than the rest of us.

 

[gret]

Disclosure...In general, I'm not a fan of unions. They encouraged members to vote for Obama and take advantage of their members so that a few leaders can lead the good life. That story is for another day.

In CitationAir's case, it is extremely doubtful that a pilot's union was a factor in their demise. Textron and Cessna possess considerable experience dealing with organized labor and having a few rabble rousing pilots carping about how they feel mistreated isn't going to impact their mgmt process.

Cessna has been sucking wind for almost 5 years now. They replaced the CEO a year so ago and Textron took a look at the business units to determine if they made sense. CitationAir didn't fit in their plans and they chose to go in a different direction.

Did the union organizing efforts weigh in on their decision...maybe...but they had probably already decided and the union talks just confirmed to them that they were going in the right direction.

 

[CALRepublic]

It is obvious you enjoy debating G4, you come here, get beat up and keep coming back for more... You are tenacious my friend..

I agree with about 80% of what you said, I just don't have the energy and desire to come here and argue.

 

[Praetorian]

Disclosure...In general, I'm not a fan of unions. They encouraged members to vote for Obama and take advantage of their members so that a few leaders can lead the good life. That story is for another day.

In CitationAir's case, it is extremely doubtful that a pilot's union was a factor in their demise. Textron and Cessna possess considerable experience dealing with organized labor and having a few rabble rousing pilots carping about how they feel mistreated isn't going to impact their mgmt process.

Cessna has been sucking wind for almost 5 years now. They replaced the CEO a year so ago and Textron took a look at the business units to determine if they made sense. CitationAir didn't fit in their plans and they chose to go in a different direction.

Did the union organizing efforts weigh in on their decision...maybe...but they had probably already decided and the union talks just confirmed to them that they were going in the right direction.

Just wondering. How much does the union-busting firm pay you to spew your s**t on here? Do they adequately compensate you for the loss of your soul? Does it still hurt a little inside, or have you gotten over that?

 

[gret]

Just wondering. How much does the union-busting firm pay you to spew your s**t on here? Do they adequately compensate you for the loss of your soul? Does it still hurt a little inside, or have you gotten over that?

Do you practice your dribble in front of a mirror to see how silly you sound?

 

[Praetorian]

Do you practice your dribble in front of a mirror to see how silly you sound?

Did the horns start poking through yet? That's how you know your fully committed.

 

[OHGOON]

CA was in that financial state and still going. The union got voted in and immediately CA announced it would wind down its operations. Seems logical to assume one had everything to do with the other.

No it does not seem logical to anyone who has any real information about the situation.

The whole truth may never be known about why Cessna/Textron decided to do what they are doing now. Whatever it is, it can't be the Union because there is no CBA yet. The company can unilaterally do as they please during negotiations for a first CBA. CA's management is free to do whatever they want again because the status quo with its incumbent restrictions ended as soon as the elections were won by the Union. Since there is no contract of any kind yet, they can do what they want, when they want to do it.

The fact that you don't know that or if you do, you are obviously unable to figure out its meaning, exposes you as a hack. A dumber as a fence post hack.

Please just go on stuffing your fat face at Papadoux or wherever with your buddies and leave the grown up problems to those who actually know what is going on.

 

[G4dude]

No it does not seem logical to anyone who has any real information about the situation.

The whole truth may never be known about why Cessna/Textron decided to do what they are doing now. Whatever it is, it can't be the Union because there is no CBA yet. The company can unilaterally do as they please during negotiations for a first CBA. CA's management is free to do whatever they want again because the status quo with its incumbent restrictions ended as soon as the elections were won by the Union. Since there is no contract of any kind yet, they can do what they want, when they want to do it.

The fact that you don't know that or if you do, you are obviously unable to figure out its meaning, exposes you as a hack. A dumber as a fence post hack.

Please just go on stuffing your fat face at Papadoux or wherever with your buddies and leave the grown up problems to those who actually know what is going on.

Maybe I am wrong, but the timing of Citation Air's demise seems awfully suggestive. Thanks for the courteous tone, by the way. Do you actually think everyone who disagrees with you about unions has an ulterior motive? I guess that belief keeps you from actually thinking on your own, examining your own assumptions.

 

[G4dude]

It is obvious you enjoy debating G4, you come here, get beat up and keep coming back for more... You are tenacious my friend..

I agree with about 80% of what you said, I just don't have the energy and desire to come here and argue.

Yeah, well, my friend gutshotdraw and a few others are worth the effort. Actuallly, pretty much everybody here means well, they just get a little cranky sometimes. I have learned a lot here, even from my detractors. They are certainly knowledgeable, but their conclusions don't match mine. It is still fun to discuss things here.

 

[gunfyter]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

 

[gret]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He was quite articulate and interesting. Makes most of the individuals who are not brain washed...downright pikers.

 

[Praetorian]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He's here. Just got a new name.

 

[realityman]

I believe Avantair will now go out of business, just like Citation Air, and for the same reason. Now, while they are struggling, they have to deal with a union. This is good news for the other fractionals. There will be less competition.

And here is exactly what I've spoken about in another thread: Pilots eating their own.

Rather than simply say "Good luck Avantair pilots", we have another pilot indirectly telling the Avantair pilots that they should just shut up and take whatever management dishes out to them or YOU THE PILOTS will be responsible for your company's demise.

Who knows, maybe the Avantair pilots won't be able to negotiate a pay raise. but what if they can lock in some decent and SAFE work rules?

Every working group who can improve things, even a little bit, is a rising tide that helps EVERYONE in that industry. The more pilots who stand up and say "We aren't going to work for peanuts anymore, and we demand reasonable work rules!!!", the better off the entire industry is.

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

My long-winded point is, it's a shame people like G4dude can't just say good luck and I hope you make great improvements. Instead, he feels the need to spout off negativity. Maybe he truly believes what he's saying. But wouldn't it be better to simply wish them well in their efforts? Any advancement made in any area (pay, safety, work rules, etc...) could benefit us all.

Good luck Avantair pilots! I encountered the same kind of crap before '05 when we were trying to improve things at NJA. I even had our NJI folks tell me that we were going to ruin NJA if we pushed for all the improvements to our work rules and compensation we were looking for. Funny thing is, quite a few of those former NJI people are awful happy to have some of those protections they now enjoy under our CBA. Interesting how improvements for one group can benefit another later down the line.

Ignore the haters and go for what you think is right! Gutshotdraw has the right approach on this thread.

 

[brokeflyer]

what the idiot management people dont understand is, the owners WANT to pay the extra money provided they know it goes to the crew and not the ceo of the flight dept.

Do you think that person worth 400 million will go to Fargo medical center for their mitral valve repair because they're cheaper?

the pilot salaries are less than 5% of the expenses that go out. Its easier to crap all over the flight crew than it is to negotiate a cheaper price on a fleet of planes. And management can pay themslves huge bonuses for doing exactly nothing. that is why companies fail. The union protects the company from itself.

 

[X-rated]

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

 

[brokeflyer]

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

he was just using general numbers. it wasnt meant to be "this type of plane vs that type of plane". Use $2000/hr and his math is the same.

 

[gret]

what the idiot management people dont understand is, the owners WANT to pay the extra money provided they know it goes to the crew and not the ceo of the flight dept.

Do you think that person worth 400 million will go to Fargo medical center for their mitral valve repair because they're cheaper?

the pilot salaries are less than 5% of the expenses that go out. Its easier to crap all over the flight crew than it is to negotiate a cheaper price on a fleet of planes. And management can pay themslves huge bonuses for doing exactly nothing. that is why companies fail. The union protects the company from itself.

Sorry...owners don't want to pay their pilots more. They may want them to be paid very well, if someone else is picking up the tab and it doesn't cost them anymore.

The fact is that many aircraft owners will sell you down the river at the drop of a hat. You're not their wife, buddy, lawyer, accountant, banker, or therapist. Happens everyday.

 

[gret]

Just curious why someone so wealthy and willing to spend 5500 an hour is flying around in a Lear 35? Maybe it made sense at 4,500 an hour, but at 5500, she could probably get a Citation X. And, for 8500 she could get a G550. Is it possible she chose the 4500 dollar Lear 35 because she does care what it costs? I agree with your premiss only to a certain extent, and then market realities take over. No one is going to pay G550 rates to fly around in a Lear 35. It doesn't matter how much money you think they have.

You're on point and what realtyman said should be the case, but it isn't. The people in the back watch every penny they spend and if they can save $$$$, they will.

Also, the owners have staff who take care of the $$$ and arrange most things for the big guy. These people are rewarded for watching their bosses money and they will find the best deal out there. They lose if they pay more than market.

 

[brokeflyer]

Sorry...owners don't want to pay their pilots more. They may want them to be paid very well, if someone else is picking up the tab and it doesn't cost them anymore.

The fact is that many aircraft owners will sell you down the river at the drop of a hat. You're not their wife, buddy, lawyer, accountant, banker, or therapist. Happens everyday.

that's not what i hear.

 

[realityman]

X-rated,

I was just using those numbers as a general example. I really don't remember what those rates were. It was over 17 years ago.

The point being, it seems pilots are AFRAID to ask for adequate compensation because of some belief decent wages will chase away clients.

My numbers were meant to illustrate that the amount people are paying for charter/fractional is not really a concern for people riding in the back of these things. Or for the many businesses who use our services.

Like I said, sure, they do some price shopping. People love a 'deal' no matter how much money they have. But if prices went up nearly across the board at ALL operators, you wouldn't see these folks running back to the airlines.

Honestly, does anyone here really believe that if someone who has a net worth of $50 million, $100 million, $500 million, $1 billion or whatever is going to stop flying in private jets because the rates have gone up by $50,000, or $200,000 (depending on type chartered and rates and amount flown) in a year? "Oh no! I'm worth $100 million dollars and my charter/fractional rates have gone from $500,000/year to $600,000/year! Nuts, back to seat 3D on Delta for me.". (That's assuming Delta even goes to the airport they want to fly into)

The more pilot groups in our end of the industry that stand up for better wages and working conditions, the better it will be for all of us. I don't believe that will chase clients away.

 

[jonjuan]

X-rated,

I was just using those numbers as a general example. I really don't remember what those rates were. It was over 17 years ago.

The point being, it seems pilots are AFRAID to ask for adequate compensation because of some belief decent wages will chase away clients.

My numbers were meant to illustrate that the amount people are paying for charter/fractional is not really a concern for people riding in the back of these things. Or for the many businesses who use our services.

Like I said, sure, they do some price shopping. People love a 'deal' no matter how much money they have. But if prices went up nearly across the board at ALL operators, you wouldn't see these folks running back to the airlines.

Honestly, does anyone here really believe that if someone who has a net worth of $50 million, $100 million, $500 million, $1 billion or whatever is going to stop flying in private jets because the rates have gone up by $50,000, or $200,000 (depending on type chartered and rates and amount flown) in a year? "Oh no! I'm worth $100 million dollars and my charter/fractional rates have gone from $500,000/year to $600,000/year! Nuts, back to seat 3D on Delta for me.". (That's assuming Delta even goes to the airport they want to fly into)

The more pilot groups in our end of the industry that stand up for better wages and working conditions, the better it will be for all of us. I don't believe that will chase clients away.

I've known a few multi, multi millionaires who have bragged about the low prices and "decent servive" on JetBlue from pbi-HPN.

 

[realityman]

I've known a few multi, multi millionaires who have bragged about the low prices and "decent servive" on JetBlue from pbi-HPN.

Not sure what your point is.

I never said EVERY wealthy person/corporation rides around in private jets. There's still a huge untapped market out there of people/businesses who an afford private jet travel but currently don't use it.

I highly doubt any multi-millionaire is comparing service at JetBlue to service on a private jet.

Private jet travel will never appeal to every wealthy individual/business out there. But I highly doubt good wages for the pilots is going send a bunch of wealthy folks running back to the airlines.

 

[gret]

One of the basics rules of economics is that when supply is greater than demand, prices go down.

There are way too many pilots (supply) compared to the number of jobs needed to be filled (demand).

Compensation cannot go up unless supply drops or demand increases.

 

[realityman]

That may apply to goods, but not necessarily to services.

Too many variables with services. For example, unions change that dynamic.

Also, superior skills can alter it. A really excellent plumber will be able to command higher wages (assuming folks know his work is superior) than a bunch of others in the same market who are known for shoddy work. Maybe the good plumber is more experienced? Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Similarly, level of service can charge more. There are about a zillion cabs in NYC. All provide transport from one point to another. Yet a sedan and driver providing essentially the same service charges more. How can they do that in a market saturated with cars and drivers?

People will pay a premium for experience. If they didn't, salons across the country would be out of business because there are LOTS of people working in Supercuts or Fantastic Sams who will cut hair for a lot less.

I haven't taken any special courses in economics, but at least fromm outward appearances the laws of economics are different for services than they are for goods.

Heck, no matter what fractional and charter pilots are being paid, utilizing private jets is way more expensive than flying on the airlines, yet plenty of private jet companies are doing fine. Why would ANY rich person pay to fly on a private jet from New York to LA when there is a huge supply of cheap (comparatively) airline seats out there to be had on that route?

We just need more pilots to realize their worth. But this whole thing is mental masturbation. I just don't understand why EVERY pilot here isn't routing for Avantair, or any other group of pilots, who are trying to make things better? Some pilots just seem to be HOPING other pilots fail. Why on earth anyone here is criticizing these guys is incomprehensible. I want my ENTIRE industry to pay great wages and benefits!

 

[gutshotdraw]

That may apply to goods, but not necessarily to services.

Too many variables with services. For example, unions change that dynamic.

Also, superior skills can alter it. A really excellent plumber will be able to command higher wages (assuming folks know his work is superior) than a bunch of others in the same market who are known for shoddy work. Maybe the good plumber is more experienced? Hmmm, sounds familiar.

Similarly, level of service can charge more. There are about a zillion cabs in NYC. All provide transport from one point to another. Yet a sedan and driver providing essentially the same service charges more. How can they do that in a market saturated with cars and drivers?

People will pay a premium for experience. If they didn't, salons across the country would be out of business because there are LOTS of people working in Supercuts or Fantastic Sams who will cut hair for a lot less.

I haven't taken any special courses in economics, but at least fromm outward appearances the laws of economics are different for services than they are for goods.

Heck, no matter what fractional and charter pilots are being paid, utilizing private jets is way more expensive than flying on the airlines, yet plenty of private jet companies are doing fine. Why would ANY rich person pay to fly on a private jet from New York to LA when there is a huge supply of cheap (comparatively) airline seats out there to be had on that route?

We just need more pilots to realize their worth. But this whole thing is mental masturbation. I just don't understand why EVERY pilot here isn't routing for Avantair, or any other group of pilots, who are trying to make things better? Some pilots just seem to be HOPING other pilots fail. Why on earth anyone here is criticizing these guys is incomprehensible. I want my ENTIRE industry to pay great wages and benefits!

Well, Jeppeson does our routing. Maybe Universal does it for Avantair

Just bustin yer chops....

Seriously,

Realityman makes some great points and I'm always rooting for every pilot group to do better whether union or non-union. (Okay, I admit to kinda rooting against some USAirways East folks for being just plain unrealistic on their DOH jihad).

That said, I don't think G4 is rooting AGAINST any pilot group. I just think he has a totally different, albeit unpopular, view on how to best achieve greater things. I don't agree with him given the current pilot labor paradigm but his perspective is a legitimate point of view held by a surprisingly large number of pilots. But if and when the time comes, I WILL get him (and a number of others) to vote YES on the strike authorization. Trust me on that.

Meanwhile, best of luck again to the Avantair folks and keep us posted on your progress.

 

[OHGOON]

Maybe I am wrong, but the timing of Citation Air's demise seems awfully suggestive. Thanks for the courteous tone, by the way. Do you actually think everyone who disagrees with you about unions has an ulterior motive? I guess that belief keeps you from actually thinking on your own, examining your own assumptions.

You want a more courteous tone after having posted this?

Originally Posted by G4dude
I believe Avantair will now go out of business, just like Citation Air, and for the same reason. Now, while they are struggling, they have to deal with a union. This is good news for the other fractionals. There will be less competition.

You blame the victim for standing up for themselves and in the same paragraph proclaim fellow pilots possibly loosing their careers as "good news". Where is the courtesy or just common decency in that? Wonder if you would be so philosophical if it was your job that was on the line?

As far as the rest of your dime store analysis; Pfft... One assumption about you being a major rectal gash is one that I don't need to question. The stink emanating from your general direction is proof enough.

I have seen your kind my whole career, no personal honor, no respect for others and always willing to throw someone else under the bus if there is even a remote chance that it would benefit you personally...

You want courtesy...try showing some by not gloating over others misfortune!

 

[G4dude]

And here is exactly what I've spoken about in another thread: Pilots eating their own.

Rather than simply say "Good luck Avantair pilots", we have another pilot indirectly telling the Avantair pilots that they should just shut up and take whatever management dishes out to them or YOU THE PILOTS will be responsible for your company's demise.

Who knows, maybe the Avantair pilots won't be able to negotiate a pay raise. but what if they can lock in some decent and SAFE work rules?

Every working group who can improve things, even a little bit, is a rising tide that helps EVERYONE in that industry. The more pilots who stand up and say "We aren't going to work for peanuts anymore, and we demand reasonable work rules!!!", the better off the entire industry is.

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

My long-winded point is, it's a shame people like G4dude can't just say good luck and I hope you make great improvements. Instead, he feels the need to spout off negativity. Maybe he truly believes what he's saying. But wouldn't it be better to simply wish them well in their efforts? Any advancement made in any area (pay, safety, work rules, etc...) could benefit us all.

Good luck Avantair pilots! I encountered the same kind of crap before '05 when we were trying to improve things at NJA. I even had our NJI folks tell me that we were going to ruin NJA if we pushed for all the improvements to our work rules and compensation we were looking for. Funny thing is, quite a few of those former NJI people are awful happy to have some of those protections they now enjoy under our CBA. Interesting how improvements for one group can benefit another later down the line.

Ignore the haters and go for what you think is right! Gutshotdraw has the right approach on this thread.

I want the pilots to eat their own? I am arguing the union will endanger the pilots' jobs by demanding so much that the company will become uncompetitive. This will cause the pilots' jobs to go away, which would be very bad. Why does this make me a hater? Avantair is on the ropes in the marketplace right now.

 

[G4dude]

You want a more courteous tone after having posted this?

You blame the victim for standing up for themselves and in the same paragraph proclaim fellow pilots possibly loosing their careers as "good news". Where is the courtesy or just common decency in that? Wonder if you would be so philosophical if it was your job that was on the line?

As far as the rest of your dime store analysis; Pfft... One assumption about you being a major rectal gash is one that I don't need to question. The stink emanating from your general direction is proof enough.

I have seen your kind my whole career, no personal honor, no respect for others and always willing to throw someone else under the bus if there is even a remote chance that it would benefit you personally...

You want courtesy...try showing some by not gloating over others misfortune!

Seriously? I am afraid the Avantair pilots will cause the demise of their employer, costing them their jobs. Why does that make me a bad person? I want the pilots, some of whom I have met, to keep their jobs so they can feed their families. I wasn't gloating, quite the opposite. It would benefit my company if the Avantair pilots get too aggressive, but I am saying don't do it, it will cost you your jobs. I am saying DON'T throw yourselves under the bus, even though it would benefit my company. Which would be bad for the Avantair pilots. And sad to see.

 

[G4dude]

he was just using general numbers. it wasnt meant to be "this type of plane vs that type of plane". Use $2000/hr and his math is the same.

If his scenario happens, charter rates for that company will go up. Demand for the services of that company will go down due to the following reasons.

1. competitors will still charge less for the same plane. Customers will take their business to the lower cost competitor.
2. more capable planes will cost the same as the Lear, creating less demand for the Lear
3. fractional ownership will become more desirable as an option to charter because of the higher charter rate.

The pilots, who got the higher pay, are now laid off. Results matter. The pay increase never happens in a vacuum.