Avantair Union

[avantairowner]

"Honestly, does anyone here really believe that if someone who has a net worth of $50 million, $100 million, $500 million, $1 billion or whatever is going to stop flying in private jets because the rates have gone up by $50,000, or $200,000 (depending on type chartered and rates and amount flown) in a year? "Oh no! I'm worth $100 million dollars and my charter/fractional rates have gone from $500,000/year to $600,000/year! Nuts, back to seat 3D on Delta for me.". (That's assuming Delta even goes to the airport they want to fly into)"

Unfortunately, you are out of touch with how the people in the back think. That mentaility makes me wonder about the culture at the Company that employs you.

 

[X-rated]

X-rated,

I was just using those numbers as a general example. I really don't remember what those rates were. It was over 17 years ago.

The point being, it seems pilots are AFRAID to ask for adequate compensation because of some belief decent wages will chase away clients.

My numbers were meant to illustrate that the amount people are paying for charter/fractional is not really a concern for people riding in the back of these things. Or for the many businesses who use our services.

Like I said, sure, they do some price shopping. People love a 'deal' no matter how much money they have. But if prices went up nearly across the board at ALL operators, you wouldn't see these folks running back to the airlines.

Honestly, does anyone here really believe that if someone who has a net worth of $50 million, $100 million, $500 million, $1 billion or whatever is going to stop flying in private jets because the rates have gone up by $50,000, or $200,000 (depending on type chartered and rates and amount flown) in a year? "Oh no! I'm worth $100 million dollars and my charter/fractional rates have gone from $500,000/year to $600,000/year! Nuts, back to seat 3D on Delta for me.". (That's assuming Delta even goes to the airport they want to fly into)

The more pilot groups in our end of the industry that stand up for better wages and working conditions, the better it will be for all of us. I don't believe that will chase clients away.

I hear you. I was just going with your numbers to illustrate my point. Apparently, I did a poor job. What I meant was if this lady is so wealthy, why was she flying in a Lear 35 instead of something more comfortable? Whatever the price was, it was worth it to her to fly in a Lear 35. Could she have gotten a G-IV (17 years ago) for 1 or 2 thousand an hour more? If so, wouldn't that make more sense than paying a premium to fly in the Lear? And, why did she originally settle on the Lear? If she was so wealthy and honestly didn't care what things cost, she would have flown on something nicer. I currently fly for a seriously wealthy and generous man. I promise you, he cares what things cost and he always wants to get a deal. That's just human nature.

I agree with you that if you could somehow get every operator to increase rates across the board your scenario would be true. But, free market realities will never let that happen. You don't have to have the lowest prices, but you need to be at least somewhat completive regardless of how wealthy the customer is. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[G4dude]

I hear you. I was just going with your numbers to illustrate my point. Apparently, I did a poor job. What I meant was if this lady is so wealthy, why was she flying in a Lear 35 instead of something more comfortable? Whatever the price was, it was worth it to her to fly in a Lear 35. Could she have gotten a G-IV (17 years ago) for 1 or 2 thousand an hour more? If so, wouldn't that make more sense than paying a premium to fly in the Lear? And, why did she originally settle on the Lear? If she was so wealthy and honestly didn't care what things cost, she would have flown on something nicer. I currently fly for a seriously wealthy and generous man. I promise you, he cares what things cost and he always wants to get a deal. That's just human nature.

I agree with you that if you could somehow get every operator to increase rates across the board your scenario would be true. But, free market realities will never let that happen. You don't have to have the lowest prices, but you need to be at least somewhat completive regardless of how wealthy the customer is. That's all I was trying to say.

And further, when ALL the operators raise their charter rates, there is now an opportunity for new charter companies to start up and make a profit, employing lower paid pilots who want a job. This is why ValuJet/Airtran got started, undercutting Delta.

 

[X-rated]

And further, when ALL the operators raise their charter rates, there is now an opportunity for new charter companies to start up and make a profit, employing lower paid pilots who want a job. This is why ValuJet/Airtran got started, undercutting Delta.

True, but that's part of what I meant by "market realities". A fee market will let you make a profit but not a killing. The higher your profit margin, the more new competition will incentivized to come in and eat your lunch. That rule applies not only to businesses, but employees too.

 

[G4dude]

True, but that's part of what I meant by "market realities". A fee market will let you make a profit but not a killing. The higher your profit margin, the more new competition will incentivized to come in and eat your lunch. That rule applies not only to businesses, but employees too.

I hadn't thought of it that way, very interesting.

 

[gret]

Not sure what the point is, but a few things to consider-

1. A business cannot set prices in cooperation with competitors. It’s call price fixing and is illegal.
2. Gross profit margin is sales less direct costs of providing the product or service.
3. Operating Profit is a termed generally used to indicate Gross Profit less general, administrative, and selling expenses.
4. Net income is usually Operating Profit less interest expense and taxes.

Successful companies can-

1. Generate the most sales by providing a quality product at the most competive price
2. Control costs the best

Sounds simple, but in practice it is not.

 

[OHGOON]

So the race for the bottom is inevitable then?

We should just recognize that when an employer makes more demands on us for ever less, that this is just the natural order of things and we should realize how blessed we are to be able to participate in creating profits for our betters...Right?

On the other hand, while X's thinking here may look compelling on the surface due to its seemingly simplicity, the reality out there is much more complex...

Especially in private aviation, things are not just about saving a buck...if it were, this whole sector of aviation would not exist in the first place, because it can never compete against regular airlines' first class on pure economics alone.

The actual allure of private is mostly about prestige and projecting an image of success, convenience and one-up-man-ship. In that environment, the perception of overall value is what wins the day and that is determined by more than just direct out of pocket costs.

A large part of that perceived value is determined by being able to make the claim of having the most safe and experienced pilots in the business. The more experience you can demonstrate, the easier it is to sell a new customer and keep the old one. Experienced pilots in turn look for money, quality of life, and stability the longer they fly professionally and it's undeniable that by organizing yourself into a professional group, you can create these kinds of conditions much more sustainably over time than by going it alone.

Unions can be good for business because they provide stability and predictability. Intelligent management usually recognizes this sooner or later and ultimately makes accommodations so as to take advantage of what a unionized workplace can offer. So again, we arrive at the old truism of it's all up to management when it comes to how their unionized labor force affects their business.

Secondly, it's all up to us in how successful a Union will ultimately be. Without unity of purpose we remain powerless.

 

[gret]

Two points that seem many have a hard time understanding-

1. There are too many pilots.
2. Many business jet flyers do not look favorably on unions and don't view them as providing stability and predictability. In fact, the opposite is true.

Unions serve a purpose, but they can never be a selling point. As our economy has drifted turned from manufacturing to a service base, this is even more telling by the drastic drop in union membership and persistent failed attempts to organize white collar employees on a meaningful level.

I'm sure there are exceptions that are out there, but other than pilots, what "profession" has unionized to where it matters?

 

[Paradoxus]

I'm sure there are exceptions that are out there, but other than pilots, what "profession" has unionized to where it matters?

The motion-picture industry is FULL of white-collar unions:

http://www.wga.org/

http://www.sagaftra.org/

http://www.amptp.org/

http://locationmanagers.org/lmga/

https://www.editorsguild.com/index.cfm?

http://www.mpse.org/

http://www.producersguild.org/

http://www.iatse-intl.org/

http://www.dga.org/

 

[gutshotdraw]

Pilots, as a group, are NOT white collar professionals. But we THINK we are.

We are as blue collar as any plumber or truck driver. The spelling, syntax and grammar on this board bear stark witness to that fact.

And have you seen how pilots tend to dress?

Jusssssss sayin'

 

[Newkem]

Pilots, as a group, are NOT white collar professionals. But we THINK we are.

We are as blue collar as any plumber or truck driver. The spelling, syntax and grammar on this board bear stark witness to that fact.

And have you seen how pilots tend to dress?

Jusssssss sayin'

Oh how droll. Gauche.

 

[gunfyter]

I'm sure there are exceptions that are out there, but other than pilots, what "profession" has unionized to where it matters?

Doctors ... its called the AMA ....

 

[X-rated]

So the race for the bottom is inevitable then?

We should just recognize that when an employer makes more demands on us for ever less, that this is just the natural order of things and we should realize how blessed we are to be able to participate in creating profits for our betters...Right?

On the other hand, while X's thinking here may look compelling on the surface due to its seemingly simplicity, the reality out there is much more complex...

Especially in private aviation, things are not just about saving a buck...if it were, this whole sector of aviation would not exist in the first place, because it can never compete against regular airlines' first class on pure economics alone.

The actual allure of private is mostly about prestige and projecting an image of success, convenience and one-up-man-ship. In that environment, the perception of overall value is what wins the day and that is determined by more than just direct out of pocket costs.

A large part of that perceived value is determined by being able to make the claim of having the most safe and experienced pilots in the business. The more experience you can demonstrate, the easier it is to sell a new customer and keep the old one. Experienced pilots in turn look for money, quality of life, and stability the longer they fly professionally and it's undeniable that by organizing yourself into a professional group, you can create these kinds of conditions much more sustainably over time than by going it alone.

Unions can be good for business because they provide stability and predictability. Intelligent management usually recognizes this sooner or later and ultimately makes accommodations so as to take advantage of what a unionized workplace can offer. So again, we arrive at the old truism of it's all up to management when it comes to how their unionized labor force affects their business.

Secondly, it's all up to us in how successful a Union will ultimately be. Without unity of purpose we remain powerless.

I really don't see where you get "race to the bottom" from anything I said. I just said, irrespective of the perceived wealth of your clientele, your cost structure cannot get too far out of line with the existing market. Don't fool yourself, no one, including very wealthy people, will pay significantly above market rates for an equal product. Also, higher wages, increased benefits, and better working conditions will attract more workers, which as gret pointed out, will put downward pressure on compensation. The reverse is also true. If enough pilots decide this industry is no longer worth it and decide to do something else, it will create a pilot shortage and wages will rise. And then the cycle will begin again. It's actually a pretty good system.

 

[gret]

Doctors ... its called the AMA ....

Interesting...I don't think they act as a union, but they have been accused of being a guild. Honestly, I didn't know everything they did until I just looked it up. Pilots can learn from them as they have been accused of limiting the number of doctors that can enter the profession.

I thought the AMA was more like the bar association (lawyers that is) or the state societies of CPA's.

 

[gunfyter]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

 

[gret]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

Tremendous power because they can limit the number of new doctors.

They don't have a say regarding work hours, job duties, QOL, or anything else...but...compensation by keeping the number of qualified workers low.

Pretty good gig if you can get it.

 

[gunfyter]

Further:

(Milton Friedman)in his classic 1962 book Capitalism and Freedom, Dr. Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition. For example, the “Council on Medical Education and Hospitals” of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA effectively limits the supply of physicians, which increases their wages, and raises the overall cost of medical care.

also in 1999 the AMA was working to unionize doctors to fight low compensation of insurance companies....

 

[brokeflyer]

thats what we need. limit the number of ATP's that are given out.

problem is, airlines would pay congress to issue one to everyone to keep the salary low.

management would gladly pay 100 million to fight pilots who are only asking 10 million. Amazing they can get a college degree being that stupid.

 

[X-rated]

100 Years of Medical Robbery
Mises Daily: Thursday, June 10, 2004 by Dale Steinreich

http://mises.org/daily/1547


The public policy blog of the American Enterprise Institute

American Medical Association: the strongest trade union in the U.S.A.
Mark J. Perry | July 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/07/am...ation-the-strongest-trade-union-in-the-u-s-a/

Very interesting articles and a connection I had never made. However, the $153,000 median salary for primary-care physicians honestly doesn't seem very high considering the ferocious competition, years of training and capital invested to become a physician. Most major airline captains and Long Range private jet captains far eclipse that mark. It certainly provides another perspective to all the race to the bottom rhetoric. We all think we're worth 250K per year due to our skill and training. The fact is, most people could do our jobs with a year or two of training. The average guy on this board could never become a doctor.


"Restricting labor supply has markedly boosted incomes. Median yearly salaries for primary-care physicians are $153,000, for specialists $275,000."

 

[G4dude]

thats what we need. limit the number of ATP's that are given out.

problem is, airlines would pay congress to issue one to everyone to keep the salary low.

management would gladly pay 100 million to fight pilots who are only asking 10 million. Amazing they can get a college degree being that stupid.

I think we are overpaid in many cases, except for the fact that we have to pass a physical every 6 months. Let the marketplace decide how many pilots there are and how much they get paid. How can anybody advocate, by the way, restricting the number of pilots who can realize their dream of becoming aviators just so the rest of us can make more money? Gad! I say that with all due respect, Brokeflyer.