Avantair Union

[G4dude]

Make no mistake, if CA does go out of business, it will have done so due to poor business decisions, not the fact that a union was voted in. I don't know anything about Avantair, but I suspect the same there.


X

CA was in that financial state and still going. The union got voted in and immediately CA announced it would wind down its operations. Seems logical to assume one had everything to do with the other.

 

[Helmsalee]

Seems logical to you G. But then, you exist in a totally different dimension than the rest of us.

 

[gret]

Disclosure...In general, I'm not a fan of unions. They encouraged members to vote for Obama and take advantage of their members so that a few leaders can lead the good life. That story is for another day.

In CitationAir's case, it is extremely doubtful that a pilot's union was a factor in their demise. Textron and Cessna possess considerable experience dealing with organized labor and having a few rabble rousing pilots carping about how they feel mistreated isn't going to impact their mgmt process.

Cessna has been sucking wind for almost 5 years now. They replaced the CEO a year so ago and Textron took a look at the business units to determine if they made sense. CitationAir didn't fit in their plans and they chose to go in a different direction.

Did the union organizing efforts weigh in on their decision...maybe...but they had probably already decided and the union talks just confirmed to them that they were going in the right direction.

 

[CALRepublic]

It is obvious you enjoy debating G4, you come here, get beat up and keep coming back for more... You are tenacious my friend..

I agree with about 80% of what you said, I just don't have the energy and desire to come here and argue.

 

[Praetorian]

Disclosure...In general, I'm not a fan of unions. They encouraged members to vote for Obama and take advantage of their members so that a few leaders can lead the good life. That story is for another day.

In CitationAir's case, it is extremely doubtful that a pilot's union was a factor in their demise. Textron and Cessna possess considerable experience dealing with organized labor and having a few rabble rousing pilots carping about how they feel mistreated isn't going to impact their mgmt process.

Cessna has been sucking wind for almost 5 years now. They replaced the CEO a year so ago and Textron took a look at the business units to determine if they made sense. CitationAir didn't fit in their plans and they chose to go in a different direction.

Did the union organizing efforts weigh in on their decision...maybe...but they had probably already decided and the union talks just confirmed to them that they were going in the right direction.

Just wondering. How much does the union-busting firm pay you to spew your s**t on here? Do they adequately compensate you for the loss of your soul? Does it still hurt a little inside, or have you gotten over that?

 

[gret]

Just wondering. How much does the union-busting firm pay you to spew your s**t on here? Do they adequately compensate you for the loss of your soul? Does it still hurt a little inside, or have you gotten over that?

Do you practice your dribble in front of a mirror to see how silly you sound?

 

[Praetorian]

Do you practice your dribble in front of a mirror to see how silly you sound?

Did the horns start poking through yet? That's how you know your fully committed.

 

[OHGOON]

CA was in that financial state and still going. The union got voted in and immediately CA announced it would wind down its operations. Seems logical to assume one had everything to do with the other.

No it does not seem logical to anyone who has any real information about the situation.

The whole truth may never be known about why Cessna/Textron decided to do what they are doing now. Whatever it is, it can't be the Union because there is no CBA yet. The company can unilaterally do as they please during negotiations for a first CBA. CA's management is free to do whatever they want again because the status quo with its incumbent restrictions ended as soon as the elections were won by the Union. Since there is no contract of any kind yet, they can do what they want, when they want to do it.

The fact that you don't know that or if you do, you are obviously unable to figure out its meaning, exposes you as a hack. A dumber as a fence post hack.

Please just go on stuffing your fat face at Papadoux or wherever with your buddies and leave the grown up problems to those who actually know what is going on.

 

[G4dude]

No it does not seem logical to anyone who has any real information about the situation.

The whole truth may never be known about why Cessna/Textron decided to do what they are doing now. Whatever it is, it can't be the Union because there is no CBA yet. The company can unilaterally do as they please during negotiations for a first CBA. CA's management is free to do whatever they want again because the status quo with its incumbent restrictions ended as soon as the elections were won by the Union. Since there is no contract of any kind yet, they can do what they want, when they want to do it.

The fact that you don't know that or if you do, you are obviously unable to figure out its meaning, exposes you as a hack. A dumber as a fence post hack.

Please just go on stuffing your fat face at Papadoux or wherever with your buddies and leave the grown up problems to those who actually know what is going on.

Maybe I am wrong, but the timing of Citation Air's demise seems awfully suggestive. Thanks for the courteous tone, by the way. Do you actually think everyone who disagrees with you about unions has an ulterior motive? I guess that belief keeps you from actually thinking on your own, examining your own assumptions.

 

[G4dude]

It is obvious you enjoy debating G4, you come here, get beat up and keep coming back for more... You are tenacious my friend..

I agree with about 80% of what you said, I just don't have the energy and desire to come here and argue.

Yeah, well, my friend gutshotdraw and a few others are worth the effort. Actuallly, pretty much everybody here means well, they just get a little cranky sometimes. I have learned a lot here, even from my detractors. They are certainly knowledgeable, but their conclusions don't match mine. It is still fun to discuss things here.

 

[gunfyter]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

 

[gret]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He was quite articulate and interesting. Makes most of the individuals who are not brain washed...downright pikers.

 

[Praetorian]

Did B19 get a raise? He must be out spending it because i haven't seen him here in a while....

He's here. Just got a new name.

 

[realityman]

I believe Avantair will now go out of business, just like Citation Air, and for the same reason. Now, while they are struggling, they have to deal with a union. This is good news for the other fractionals. There will be less competition.

And here is exactly what I've spoken about in another thread: Pilots eating their own.

Rather than simply say "Good luck Avantair pilots", we have another pilot indirectly telling the Avantair pilots that they should just shut up and take whatever management dishes out to them or YOU THE PILOTS will be responsible for your company's demise.

Who knows, maybe the Avantair pilots won't be able to negotiate a pay raise. but what if they can lock in some decent and SAFE work rules?

Every working group who can improve things, even a little bit, is a rising tide that helps EVERYONE in that industry. The more pilots who stand up and say "We aren't going to work for peanuts anymore, and we demand reasonable work rules!!!", the better off the entire industry is.

Some people are so afraid we'll price ourselves out of business. Well, I don't believe that will happen in our industry if ALL THE PILOTS were to stand up and demand better.

At my last company, it was charter. I don't remember the exact rates, but I think we chartered a Lear 35 for $4500/hour (maybe it was less, maybe more, just throwing out a number as an example). Now, I distinctly remember a particular client whose net worth was somewhere north of $400 million dollars. Now let's say she bought 100 hours of charter every year. At $4500/hour, she was spending $450,000 each year with us. If the pilots had stood up and demanded sizable raises and better benefits, maybe our company would have had to charge $5500/hour for that Lear. So now Mrs. Warbucks has to spend $550,000 in a year for that same 100 hours of charter. Does anyone believe that someone who is worth more than $400 million dollars is really going to blink at that extra money?

I just don't believe that many of the folks who pilot these bizjets have a true idea of the kind of money they are transporting in the back of their aircraft. Sure, our clients bargain hunt for low prices in private jets. Hey, they're people too who enjoy a good deal, even if it's on a different level than what you and I are used to. But if wages and benefits went up across our industry, i find it highly unlikely that these people are going to go back to the airlines.

My long-winded point is, it's a shame people like G4dude can't just say good luck and I hope you make great improvements. Instead, he feels the need to spout off negativity. Maybe he truly believes what he's saying. But wouldn't it be better to simply wish them well in their efforts? Any advancement made in any area (pay, safety, work rules, etc...) could benefit us all.

Good luck Avantair pilots! I encountered the same kind of crap before '05 when we were trying to improve things at NJA. I even had our NJI folks tell me that we were going to ruin NJA if we pushed for all the improvements to our work rules and compensation we were looking for. Funny thing is, quite a few of those former NJI people are awful happy to have some of those protections they now enjoy under our CBA. Interesting how improvements for one group can benefit another later down the line.

Ignore the haters and go for what you think is right! Gutshotdraw has the right approach on this thread.

 

[brokeflyer]

what the idiot management people dont understand is, the owners WANT to pay the extra money provided they know it goes to the crew and not the ceo of the flight dept.

Do you think that person worth 400 million will go to Fargo medical center for their mitral valve repair because they're cheaper?

the pilot salaries are less than 5% of the expenses that go out. Its easier to crap all over the flight crew than it is to negotiate a cheaper price on a fleet of planes. And management can pay themslves huge bonuses for doing exactly nothing. that is why companies fail. The union protects the company from itself.