avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[fischman]

I was going to let the Avantair guys continue their discussion on unions while just reading to be informed. Until now. It just got silly with the dino comment.

Can you tell me, B19...what useful purpose did dinosaurs once have on this earth? I'm more curious what you think dinosaurs did in their time that made them "useful". Or is that just a contrived way to attempt to bash the unions. 'Cuz its a pretty sucky one, if that's all you can come up with.

They made oil.

It is still useful.

Like unions.

And unlike B19.

 

[pilotpat]

LOL fischman...I was waiting for that response. But this knucklehead was eluding to them serving a purpose while on Earth saying they once served a purpose.

And yes...they serve quite a good purpose now!

 

[fischman]

LOL fischman...I was waiting for that response. But this knucklehead was eluding to them serving a purpose while on Earth saying they once served a purpose.

And yes...they serve quite a good purpose now!

I hear ya.

 

[netjetwife]

B19 would have the Avantair pilots think that a union isn't needed but their own experiences lately say otherwise. You should always be suspicious of one who tries to deny reality--they have a hidden agenda.

NJ pilots can attest to the fact that their union is alive and very necessary. The number of calls received by Stewards and the work done by the Union Training Committee are strong evidence of that real-life situation.

Naturally, B19 would rather discuss movies and dinosaurs... instead of actual examples of how a strong union can have a very positive impact on a pilot's career. Had that landing happened to a NJA crew, they, the union, and the company would all be involved in a methodical review of the situation. Rules would be followed and the union would be making sure that the pilots were treated fairly. I think B19 needs to have it spelled out for him.... In reality a union is all about...

Representation
Equality among pilots
A set of rules for both sides
Legal help as required
Income spelled out in advance
The chance to negotiate
Your much needed contract

 

[B19 Flyer]

I think B19 needs to have it spelled out for him.... In reality a union is all about...

Representation
Equality among pilots
A set of rules for both sides
Legal help as required
Income spelled out in advance
The chance to negotiate
Your much needed contract

I spell differently than you do:

Remember
Eastern
Air
Lines
In
The
Year 1991

 

[netjetwife]

More chaff. We are discussing frac pilots and 1108. It is only fair to judge each group by its own track record.

 

[pilotpat]

You may as well blame the mechanics and rampers B19. The pilots voted to sympathy strike with them because Lorenzo wanted to cut their (mech's and rampers) pay. HE was the one who dismantled the airline. HE was the one who screwed the airline and all its employees. Place blame where it should be and come up with something in this century or even this decade if you wanna debate.

 

[B19 Flyer]

More chaff. We are discussing frac pilots and 1108. It is only fair to judge each group by its own track record.

You are right. I left out that it was the Teamsters that represented both Eastern Air Lines AND Pan Am.

Sorry..

 

[B19 Flyer]

You may as well blame the mechanics and rampers B19. The pilots voted to sympathy strike with them because Lorenzo wanted to cut their (mech's and rampers) pay. HE was the one who dismantled the airline. HE was the one who screwed the airline and all its employees. Place blame where it should be and come up with something in this century or even this decade if you wanna debate.

Your total 2000 hours tells me that you weren't even alive when Lorenzo busted the union at Continental and saved how many jobs for Continental, Frontier and People's Express employees after consolidation? I was alive, and I know the downside. Two layoffs were enough for me to seek employment at a non-union carrier to secure my future against those that didn't care about anything but themselves.

 

[pilotpat]

Oh...now its Pan Am... Are you talking about the same Pan Am that terrorists loved so much? Blew up a couple planes and then the family members of Flight 103 decided to sue the company for $300 million? Is that the Pan Am you're talking about?? But I guess the Union was to blame for that one.

By the way...read the "+" at the end of the f'ng number. I'm a lot older than you might think, sir. And that's a mighty big chip on your shoulder if you're judging people by the number of flight hours they have. Tells me a lot about your character. That'd be akin to me saying you're not much of a pilot as my profile shows 2 jet types and you have none. It means nothing.

 

[fs77]

People's Express went TU anyway; indicates to me the real issues weren't fundamentally union related anyway.

 

[B19 Flyer]

People's Express went TU anyway; indicates to me the real issues weren't fundamentally union related anyway.

You are right. It was absorbed into CAL with Frontier which ultimately became what it is today. But without the intervention by Lorenzo, they all would have been gone and thousands more jobs would have been lost.

 

[angryoneincher]

Two layoffs were enough for me to seek employment at a non-union carrier to secure my future against those that didn't care about anything but themselves.

Why do you keep acting as if you are a career pilot? News flash, EVERYONE KNOWS WHO YOU ARE. If you want to salvage any credibility you have left ( that's right, you never had any) at least join the debate as who you are, since it's already a known fact. But to act like you've flown for all these companies...... silly. But what would one expect from your type? And how do keep track of all the lies you tell on a daily basis? Must be a full time job.

 

[glasspilot]

...........................

 

[Bugsmasher Plus]

So, the word is the crew that had the gear fail on them in FLL was asked to resign or be fired. Maybe their fault, maybe not. Maybe it's justified, maybe not. Given this a/c's history and the crew's insistence of a normal landing (backed by CVR?), I'd guess not. I understand pressure to "admit" error was applied as well, to no avail.

Yea, I know, I don't like unions either. But with proper representation, mngmt can't easily make you the scapegoat as they did in this case, it appears. The ink wasn't even dry before we started hearing all the silly rules, etc.

Firing the monkeys always looks better to the shareholders.

We boys and girls may need this: http://org.teamster.org/faqs.htm

This thread got off track and went quiet in a hurry!

 

[netjetwife]

Bug, some of us have offered the Avantair pilots encouragement and pointed out (to those who haven't yet realized it, though it's hard to see how they couldn't after the recent incident there...) the need for career protections a written contract would give them. Ultimately, the choice is theirs to make: a never-ending cycle of being used (sometimes abused) by management or standing up for themselves and demanded their due as professional pilots gone from home half the time working for the company.

It amazes me that a workforce who must constantly adhere to checklists would leave the outcome of their career investment to chance, relying on those who don't have your best interests at heart to make critical decisions that affect you and your family....

Best wishes to all frac pilots and their families,
Netjetwife

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bug, some of us have offered the Avantair pilots encouragement and pointed out (to those who haven't yet realized it, though it's hard to see how they couldn't after the recent incident there...) the need for career protections a written contract would give them. Ultimately, the choice is theirs to make: a never-ending cycle of being used (sometimes abused) by management or standing up for themselves and demanded their due as professional pilots gone from home half the time working for the company.

It amazes me that a workforce who must constantly adhere to checklists would leave the outcome of their career investment to chance, relying on those who don't have your best interests at heart to make critical decisions that affect you and your family....

Best wishes to all frac pilots and their families,
Netjetwife

NJW, let me guess... Your husband has never been laid off due to a union action, right? There have been thousands of pilots and represented employees that have been laid off over the recent years because the union that pledged to protect them squeezed the neck of the golden goose SO tight the goose either croaked or no longer could lay eggs fast enough to sustain them. Carriers have been out of bankruptcy for only a couple of months, and the unions are already looking for their "fair share".. sheesh...

The only "best interest" a union has us the dues that support them. If it was the employee, they would be a lot more amicable in their dealings and act BEFORE the carrier was struggling rather than forcing it into bankruptcy by not budging on an unreasonable contract for that space in time.

 

[dime line]

NJW, let me guess... Your husband has never been laid off due to a union action, right? There have been thousands of pilots and represented employees that have been laid off over the recent years because the union that pledged to protect them squeezed the neck of the golden goose SO tight the goose either croaked or no longer could lay eggs fast enough to sustain them. Carriers have been out of bankruptcy for only a couple of months, and the unions are already looking for their "fair share".. sheesh...

The only "best interest" a union has us the dues that support them. If it was the employee, they would be a lot more amicable in their dealings and act BEFORE the carrier was struggling rather than forcing it into bankruptcy by not budging on an unreasonable contract for that space in time.

They did you moron, case in point, look at American, and Don Carty. After the pilots gave concessions, good ol Don Carty gave 20 million to the top management people. In your wack brain how is that fair? So who had the "best interest" in mind there.

 

[pilotpat]

This B19 guy can't concede a thing. Case in point is page 11 where I commented about the same things with other carriers. Its bs he's peddling. That's all. Along with a "tainted" employment past with his "layoffs". The only argument he had was that I wasn't even born during the whole Continental fiasco...pitiful. Oh, and since I was born in the 60's, I'd say I was not only alive, but I'm also a history buff who reads even if I wasn't cognizant of the facts as they happened.

Their fair share was due to them (AA Pilots) B19. Concessions by pilots and then huge bonuses to high level management. You think that's fair?

 

[Noodles]

Please don't feed the troll known as B19 Flyer. He takes a little bit of knowledge, and then demonstrates he has no idea how to use it.

Furloughs at airlines are because of bad managment, not a union.

 

[RoughAir]

Noodles has it right.

In all my furloughs, I was never furloughed because of the union "thing", it was always the result of management decisions and their business plans.

 

[netjetwife]

My husband was furloughed from American after 9-11. They announced the decision so quickly that my husband strongly suspected that they were using the situation to reorganize and put more pilots into the Regionals where pay was much lower. When offered a job with Eagle my husband declined. I think he was right in his assessment of the situation.

What did the Union do for the pilots when AA was furloughing so many? Their research turned up the fact that management was scrambling to protect their income while laying off many employees and calling for concessions from those remaining... and they got stock options for the furloughed pilots.

"The union" is the workers themselves. Like any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it. Your success or failure is a direct reflection of your involvement. The previously apathetic NJA pilots are a good example of that. When they voted in new leadership and got their own Local there was a dramatic improvement in morale which led to a far better contract. They now have the best deal among frac pilots. Additionally, I can personally attest to the fact that they have very caring volunteers representing the pilots and working with the company to find fair solutions to problems and to make NJA a viable long-term career. Obviously, it is in everyone's interest to have a productive, financially strong company and motivated workers are definitely an inherent component in the list of requirements for meeting that goal. NJA is again a good example of that widely held viewpoint.

Have a good weekend everyone...
NJW

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

This B19 guy can't concede a thing. Case in point is page 11 where I commented about the same things with other carriers. Its bs he's peddling. That's all. Along with a "tainted" employment past with his "layoffs". The only argument he had was that I wasn't even born during the whole Continental fiasco...pitiful. Oh, and since I was born in the 60's, I'd say I was not only alive, but I'm also a history buff who reads even if I wasn't cognizant of the facts as they happened.

Their fair share was due to them (AA Pilots) B19. Concessions by pilots and then huge bonuses to high level management. You think that's fair?

You guys either don't know who B19 is or you're forgetting.

He is upper management at Avantair. He's determined not to have a union on the property. He was never a career pilot. He doesn't even like pilots. He's proven himself to be a pathological liar over and over and over again.

hope that helps

 

[Noodles]

I know who it is. It's just fun having a battle of wits with unarmed person!

 

[pilotpat]

Yeah...I guess I knew he was management from previous threads. He's still a dolt.

 

[Bruno06]

B-19 has been a little quiet on this thread lately. Probably because he's busy in his office covering up the latest Avantair tire incident at TEB. He'll be going to great lengths to ensure Avantair don't carry any responsibility and will no doubt be finger-pointing at the pilots again. I don't know many details about this incident and Avantair seem to be keeping it covered up as usual.
These recurring incidents again raise the need for a union. The fact that B19 and the rest of Avantair management are so against a union just proves there's reason to be concerned.

 

[Bruno06]

Found out this was a tower mistake, appears both aircraft were cleared for takeoff. Piaggio pilots aborted to avoid the other plane. Great job, good pilots at Avatair, shame about the management!

 

[fischman]

NJW, let me guess... Your husband has never been laid off due to a union action, right? There have been thousands of pilots and represented employees that have been laid off over the recent years because the union that pledged to protect them squeezed the neck of the golden goose SO tight the goose either croaked or no longer could lay eggs fast enough to sustain them. Carriers have been out of bankruptcy for only a couple of months, and the unions are already looking for their "fair share".. sheesh...

The only "best interest" a union has us the dues that support them. If it was the employee, they would be a lot more amicable in their dealings and act BEFORE the carrier was struggling rather than forcing it into bankruptcy by not budging on an unreasonable contract for that space in time.

You need therapy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

My husband was furloughed from American after 9-11. They announced the decision so quickly that my husband strongly suspected that they were using the situation to reorganize and put more pilots into the Regionals where pay was much lower. When offered a job with Eagle my husband declined. I think he was right in his assessment of the situation.

What did the Union do for the pilots when AA was furloughing so many? Their research turned up the fact that management was scrambling to protect their income while laying off many employees and calling for concessions from those remaining... and they got stock options for the furloughed pilots.

"The union" is the workers themselves. Like any relationship, you get out of it what you put into it. Your success or failure is a direct reflection of your involvement. The previously apathetic NJA pilots are a good example of that. When they voted in new leadership and got their own Local there was a dramatic improvement in morale which led to a far better contract. They now have the best deal among frac pilots. Additionally, I can personally attest to the fact that they have very caring volunteers representing the pilots and working with the company to find fair solutions to problems and to make NJA a viable long-term career. Obviously, it is in everyone's interest to have a productive, financially strong company and motivated workers are definitely an inherent component in the list of requirements for meeting that goal. NJA is again a good example of that widely held viewpoint.

Have a good weekend everyone...
NJW

OK, so what you are saying is that the union at NJ is better than the one at AA. Go figure. What makes you think that this can't happen at NJ? Why do you think that the union will protect you when it didn't before? The same exact managment that posted the large profits below were faulted for the large losses also. Unions loved the management when the profits were being posted didn't they? I wrote this in a different thread, but rather than repeat myself I'll just copy and paste it here. The industry was already in trouble before 9/11 and everybody was scrambling. I know, because I was working for one of the carriers that was scrambling before I got laid off when the company was on the brink. The writing was on the wall long before the events of 9/11. The carrier I was with was already parking airplanes and has stopped all pilot hiring long before 9/11. Thousands including myself was laid off during this downsizing. None of the unions involved below gave an inch until the carriers were either in or on the brink of bankruptcy (my golden goose theory) which caused the layoffs. How many more articles and links would you like? The second quarter wasn't any better.

Note the date of this news article:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...%20Association

5 of 6 Big U.S. Airlines Post First-Quarter Losses


*Please Note: Archive articles do not include photos, charts or graphics. More information.
April 19, 2001, Thursday
By LAURENCE ZUCKERMAN (NYT); Business/Financial Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section C, Page 1, Column 2, 1128 words
DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - UAL Corp, parent of United Airlines, reports operating loss of $305 million in first quarter compared with profit of $136 million in year-earlier quarter; United says it does not expect its proposed $4.3 billion purchase of US Airways to receive regulatory approval before July, raising doubts deal might be completed; US Airways reports loss of $171 million compared with loss of $218 million in first quarter of 2000; Delta Air Lines reports loss of $133 million in contrast to net income of $216 million year ago; National Mediation Board asks two sides in Comair pilots labor dispute to meet in Washington next week, which would be first talks since strike began on March 26; Comair is owned by Delta; AMR Corp, parent of American Airlines, reports loss of $43 million in contrast to profit of $89 million last year; Northwest Airlines reports loss of $123 million compared to loss of $42 million in same 2000 quarter

 

[B19 Flyer]

You need therapy.

I did that and it helped. The doc told me that I needed to take responsibilty for my own career. I started working for a non-carrier and now I'm all better.