avantair.......union? Is it time.....again?

[pilotpat]

None of the legacy carriers were in trouble until they all signed industy leading contracts within a year of each other.

This has got to be the biggest load of crap I've seen since the Elephant cage at the zoo. Gimme a friggin' break.

Are you kind of like George Costanza? Its not a lie as long as you believe it.

 

[Guitar Guy]

That means that 67% is going to speak for the 33% that wanted no part of it. Do you consider that fair? I don't.

Actually, that sounds rather like democracy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

This has got to be the biggest load of crap I've seen since the Elephant cage at the zoo. Gimme a friggin' break.

Are you kind of like George Costanza? Its not a lie as long as you believe it.

Yep, just sheer conicidence that the three largest legacy carriers agreed to industry leading contracts and were all having massive losses within months of signing them before 9/11(see previous article). My load of crap doesn't stink. The truth is out there. I WAS working for one of the carriers named below.


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-64784956.html



United Airlines and ALPA Announce Tentative Agreement on New Pilot Contract.

From:
PR Newswire
Date:
August 27, 2000


CHICAGO, Aug. 26 /PRNewswire/ --
After two days of round-the-clock bargaining, United Airlines (NYSE: UAL) and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) announced that they have reached tentative agreement on a new contract for the company's pilots. The new contract is subject to endorsement by ALPA's UAL Master Executive Council, and the Labor Committee of the UAL board of directors as well as ratification by United's 10,000 pilots.

___________________________________________________________________
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-73542471.html

____________________________

Delta Air Lines and Delta pilots reach a tentative contract agreement.

From:
M2 Presswire
Date:
April 23, 2001

Show more >>
<< Show fewer links


M2 PRESSWIRE-23 April 2001-DELTA AIR LINES: Delta Air Lines and Delta pilots reach a tentative contract agreement (C)1994-2001 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD
RDATE:22042001
ATLANTA -- Delta Air Lines (NYSEAL) said today it has reached a tentative contract agreement with its pilot group, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
The tentative agreement will now go to the Delta ALPA Master Executive Council for review and, upon its approval, to the Delta pilot workforce for a ratification vote. When ratified, the contract would be amendable on May 1, 2005, ...



http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-63644937.html



__________________________

American Airlines reaches tentative agreement with pilots' union.

From:
Airline Industry Information
Date:
July 24, 2000
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<< Show fewer links


AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2000 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD
The Allied Pilots Association and American Airlines have apparently reached a tentative labour agreement.
Both groups have indicated that a deal has been reached but have refused to disclose details.
According to industry observers, the deal will extend the union's contract and eliminate the union's USD45.5m debt that arose after a judge ordered American Airlines' pilots back to work during sickout action staged in February 1999 and fined the union for not ordering the pilots back to work. The fine ...

 

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, that sounds rather like democracy.

In government it is a democracy. In private enterprise, it's an unfriendly takeover.

 

[pilotpat]

You would call the color blue, red B19. I don't buy a dam thing that because of the union agreements those carriers suffered massive losses. Bullsh!t

 

[B19 Flyer]

You would call the color blue, red B19. I don't buy a dam thing that because of the union agreements those carriers suffered massive losses. Bullsh!t

Yeah, I know... the articles are SO misleading. It's obvious that I'm making all this stuff up. Must be sheer coincidence that the large contracts were signed and the same managment that gave record profits for five years just all of a sudden forgot how to manage and it turned into massive losses. Full circle on this, is that unions didn't care about the massive losses. They were going to squeeze the golden goose and in the end, all of them were in bankruptcy. Slow reaction by the unions caused massive layoffs of pilots and support workers. (including me) You might love your union, but it doesn't love you. Even NJW admits that the union she has now is better than the one at AA. That will be right up until her husband is laid off again, then it will once again be managements fault.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-76617259.html

Delta Air Lines Downturn Reflects Rough Skies for Airline Industry.

From:
Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Date:
July 19, 2001

By Nancy Fonti, The Atlanta Journal and Constitution Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News
Jul. 19--When Delta Air Lines reports a large second-quarter loss today it will confirm that the good times have quit rolling for Atlanta's biggest corporate employer.
After a five-year run of big profits, the airline and its retooled management team now face a tougher financial environment. There's no sign yet the downturn will be as long or painful as the grinding slump of the early '90s, but it's forcing belt-tightening including a hiring freeze, route changes and sweeping fare ...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-78056343.html


Second worst.(US airline industry reports $2.5 bn profit decline)(Statistical Data Included)

From:
Air Transport World
Date:
September 1, 2001

US airline industry suffers a $2.5 billion negative profit swing in the three months to June 30
Bigger definitely wasn't better in the second quarter as far as the US airline industry was concerned. None of the Big Three carriers and only one of the six largest in revenues--Continental--managed a profit for the period. The other three that made money were No. 7 Southwest Airlines, Alaska Air Group and AmTran, parents of the ninth and tenth biggest Majors respectively. They also happen to be airlines that are far less reliant on free-spending corporations for their revenues.

 

[pilotpat]

You're beginning to sound like the teacher in Peanuts, now. It'd just be great if you went back to your desk and twiddled your thumbs a bit.

No matter how many articles you post...no matter how many times you post your mantra...I don't buy it. Why has my wife's school not gone under? Teachers just got a huge raise 3 years ago. Guess what? More students will graduate Saturday than ever and student population will be up next school year. Yup. All unions are bad, bad, bad.

 

[fischman]

Yeah, I know... the articles are SO misleading. It's obvious that I'm making all this stuff up. Must be sheer coincidence that the large contracts were signed and the same managment that gave record profits for five years just all of a sudden forgot how to manage and it turned into massive losses. Full circle on this, is that unions didn't care about the massive losses. They were going to squeeze the golden goose and in the end, all of them were in bankruptcy. Slow reaction by the unions caused massive layoffs of pilots and support workers. (including me) You might love your union, but it doesn't love you. Even NJW admits that the union she has now is better than the one at AA. That will be right up until her husband is laid off again, then it will once again be managements fault.

Just because you type it doesn't make it true.

You blame unions, the majority of everyone else (including me) blames poor management.

I am a member in good standing with 2 unions.

#1) APLA. My carrier went tail up due to management (Independence Air). I promise you it wasn't the salary or work rules of the union (very low pay). Actually labor and management had a great relationship. It wasn't uncommon to see the President (Tom Moore) walking through the crew room asking if there was anything the crews need. Asking if there was anything he could do to make our jobs easier. The bottom line is that it proved to be a bad business model and to boot, it was mis-managed.

#2) Teamsters. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe that my job at NetJets is the best flying job I have ever had. The pay is almost fair, the flying is exciting, and the company is making money. However, I file more grievances in one week than I did my entire career at the airline. The only reason NetJets does as well as it does is the professionalism of the union pilots. They are willing to do anything to get the mission done, including violations of the contract.

 

[fischman]

The dirt bag start up was one of the legacy carriers mentioned in the article. Most people don't recall it because the events of 9/11 overshadowed what was already happening. Oh, and I didn't fly for the carrier, let's not make that mistake or give anybody that is reading this thread that impression. I was in management there. I haven't flown in years and years and years. I just think that people have a real short memory when it comes to this union stuff and I don't mind reminding them about it or how I worked around it to protect myself from it. None of the legacy carriers were in trouble until they all signed industy leading contracts within a year of each other.

I would never have guessed.

 

[fischman]

The dirt bag start up was one of the legacy carriers mentioned in the article. Most people don't recall it because the events of 9/11 overshadowed what was already happening. Oh, and I didn't fly for the carrier, let's not make that mistake or give anybody that is reading this thread that impression. I was in management there. I haven't flown in years and years and years. I just think that people have a real short memory when it comes to this union stuff and I don't mind reminding them about it or how I worked around it to protect myself from it. None of the legacy carriers were in trouble until they all signed industy leading contracts within a year of each other.

Maybe it is time to come to the line again and remember what it is like in the real world?