Avantair thriving in this economic downturn...

[C425Driver]

I don't see this as an argument and I'm sorry that you do. I view this exchange as helpful information-sharing. I didn't realize that we need to share anything with you. As for commenting on the fact that Avantair is not downsizing, I have already done so-- in the beginning of the thread when I congratulated your group on its growth. I see it as bittersweet. While it gives me hope that things aren't as grim for the industry as I had previously thought, it does concern me that the lower payscale at Avantair is a possible factor in their ability to draw new owners from the other fracs. To me, the silver lining in the economic cloud hanging over us would be hearing that Avantair pilots had gotten a raise. The silver lining to those of us who actually work for Avantair is we turned a profit for the first time in the history of our company during these economic times. I'm disappointed that's not the case--yet. Hey everyone, did you hear that? NJW is disappointed in us. Your future appears promising so congrats on that. At least we agree on something.

Guys, I do get it that you see yourselves as making an investment in your careers there. No you don't. If you did you wouldn't be harassing us about our salaries. I'm sure you'll say you do but your rhetoric doesn't support it. In the few times that I've heard you mentioned in conversation by our pilots they agreed that they're sick of hearing it from you. I realize that you are proud of Avantair and see yourselves as helping to build the company. But you fail to recognize that no company has started out with industry leading wages straight out of the gates and made it. Costs must be kept low in the beginning. Two fine examples of this are NJA and SWA. Both companies didn't pay much in the beginning but after they firmly established themselves the pilots got higher wages. Kudos to you all for your hard work and loyalty. That means little coming from you. I sincerely hope that it all works out because you and your families deserve it to. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way--thus my concern. So what are you proposing here? If you actually do get your w-- dream and we get paid the same as NJA starting next week, we will be right back in the red and undo everything that we've worked for and possibly go out of business. Then what will we have? Life is full of gray areas and there can be a fine line between investing in the future and subsidizing a company that uses lower labor costs to grab market share. I'm sure you have a detailed solution for how we are going to negotiate that fine line. I mean, you do have something more to offer than, "you need more money" right? For the sake of Avantair employees/families, and the rest of the frac families, hopefully the growth and rising profits there will result in increased wages (for those not currently making the going rate) and we will all find that your investment and loyalty has been reciprocated. I hope so to, but you need to be realistic about a time line and you are not. I will be thrilled if my worry turns out to be for naught. We are doing our best to improve the company every day. It's for us to worry about - not you. Wishing the best for all frac families in these uncertain times, NJW

You seem to have no problem getting on here and telling us that we need to demand higher wages, but you have never offered a solution that will keep us on the road to sustained profitability and not hurt our company's bottom line. So here's your chance. Tell us exactly how to get those higher wages without hurting our company. After all you know everything there is to know about the fractional industry so you must have all the answers.

 

[netjetwife]

What is the "going rate" for a pilot NetJetWife? I'm serious...please, do tell....

The average of what the majority in your industry are being paid for performing the same/similar duties with like responsibilities.

 

[jonjuan]

You seem to have no problem getting on here and telling us that we need to demand higher wages, but you have never offered a solution that will keep us on the road to sustained profitability and not hurt our company's bottom line. So here's your chance. Tell us exactly how to get those higher wages without hurting our company. After all you know everything there is to know about the fractional industry so you must have all the answers.

Spot on. She's not as concerned about your pay as much as she's worried (as she should be) about owners leaving her husbands company for elsewhere where hourly costs are a fraction (that's a pun) of what they are at nj. Like WN during its growth period, much of their cost control measures led to stability and a long term paycheck their families can count on. They were looked down upon by all of the legacy carriers (AA, DAL, UAL) with massive cost structures because they udercut on price and didn't "fairly compete." It was years before they reached the "going rate." Similar story at jetblue and airtran.

 

[jonjuan]

The average of what the majority in your industry are being paid for performing the same/similar duties with like responsibilities.

Does this include charter companies? If not, why?

 

[glasspilot]

So what's the number? How much per year is "going rate" for a PIC / FO?

Does Avantair get to compare our 5yr PIC / FO pay against NetJets 5yr PIC / FO at NetJets 6 year mark?

Or are we just going to look at the big guys at current rate and then compare an upstart and cry foul? As several posters alluded to above, pilot pay is not the major reason for loses at the big 4. Airplanes sitting around are. If that's the case then pilot pay is not the major reason for Avantair doing well either, airplanes NOT sitting around is.

We get to grow too, just like the big 4. Stop demanding that we be you RIGHT THIS MINUTE. It's not fair to expect us to do what nobody else could.

 

[netjetwife]

JJ, my concern for NJ folks doesn't preclude me from being concerned for others in the industry and please note that I've been open about my worry of how one group's wages may affect another's--an awkward topic, to be sure. Concerning charter pay: A committee of NJ pilots (including my husband) researched various sources of business aviation salaries for their negotiating committee's payscale proposal. I don't remember if charters were specifically included in that list, or not. I will ask if you're interested. BTW, do you think charter pilots consider themselves to be frac pilots? And vice versa?

C425, I'm only advocating that pilots speak up and seek credit for their contribution; how they interact with their management depends on the relationship they have. Obviously, each group can go it alone, but there is the viewpoint that more is to be gained from working together and I agree with that perspective. Please don't falsely claim that I'm disappointed in Avantair pilots. I have great respect for pilots, in general, and think frac pilots, particularly, work very hard. I'm disappointed that your company is growing but your wages aren't--yet. I'm frustrated that this industry (actually, aviation in general) is quick to recognize upper management/executives with generous salaries, bonuses, stock options, etc but much slower to reward (in some cases even respect) pilots who are the front-line employees charged with customer service and safety.

I object to the term "harassing" that is not my intention, nor my attitude. About your examples: SWA has a history of respecting employees and paying fairly. Unfortunately, NJA was slow to catch on and many broken promises preceded the current contract. Many NJA pilots will tell you that they waited too long to speak up. I'm not proposing instant and exact NJ payscales, but I do firmly believe that Avantair pilots, along with their peers deserve to be in the same ballpark. Detailed solutions are the purvey of those directly involved, chosen to represent their group in whatever capacity the majority deems best. As we all know, I'm part of the support structure. I'm a cheerleader according to some here...

I do concede that my knowledge of the NJA pilots struggle for professional compensation affects my outlook and makes it harder for me to have faith in the IOU system. What is a realistic time line for wage increases at Avantair? How many quarters of posting profits does your group see as a fair time to wait? I ask questions because I think we can all learn something from each other. I do recognize the concept of working collectively for a common goal; I just tend to take a broader view and look for improvements for frac families industry wide. NJW

 

[HazMat]

Njw you have bigger things to be concerned about. It is easy when your husband is a union official and his job is not on the line. I would focus on netjets and leave AvantAir to us

 

[wacoflyr]

Exactly. NJW, who are you to mess with my job? Because that is exactly what you are doing, and with remarkably little information. For instance, the FO wages that were published were inaccurate. You couldn't know that, but that is exactly my point. How do you know what promises we have? How could you know about our profit sharing program? How could you know how effective our PAC (that's pilot action committee) is? You don't know what we are trying to build here, because you don't work here. I have read many of your posts with respect for your civility. I believe you mean well. But I think you do not understand the damage that poorly considered words may cause. I am surprised by this, because like the rest of us you have had to tolerate trolls such as B19. I would think you would have learned from his mistakes. Your arguments on this very public forum might cause discontent in my company. I doubt that it will, as we are a fairly unified group, but it might. Therefore I wish you would stop, for the sake of my company. If you must post, stick to the facts as you know them, not the surmises that you may have as a result of being married to someone who works at another fractional. My job is too important to me to just sit by and watch you carelessly meddle with it.

Regards, Wacoflyr

 

[netjetwife]

So what's the number? How much per year is "going rate" for a PIC / FO? We need a CS pilot to post the payscale at Shares if you want the exact number because the average of CS and NJ pay represents the majority, aka "going rate". Getting the input of Flt Ops pilots would be relevant as they're discussing the topic in detail right now.

Does Avantair get to compare our 5yr PIC / FO pay against NetJets 5yr PIC / FO at NetJets 6 year mark? Not 5 yr to 5 yr? I've already said that I agree that long upgrade times at NJ pose a problem that I think should be looked at, especially if it means that NJ FOs could fall behind pilots with the same years of service elsewhere. I think overall fairness is what matters so I'd look at a number of variables in comparing and take responsibilities into account, too.

Or are we just going to look at the big guys at current rate and then compare an upstart and cry foul? This viewpoint always surprises me. Maybe I lack the rivalry so many here seem to have, but I've always seen it as logical and helpful to have the biggest groups set the standard, providing it's at a professional level. I'm confident that the Flt Ops negotiators are pointing at the "big guys" pay and not those who are being underpaid like they are. The goal is to raise the bar for everyone, isn't it? I thought frac pilots were tired of the race to the bottom. As several posters alluded to above, pilot pay is not the major reason for loses at the big 4. Airplanes sitting around are. Agreed. If that's the case then pilot pay is not the major reason for Avantair doing well either, airplanes NOT sitting around is. I didn't say it was a major reason; just that it is reflected in the final product price which is a consideration of your new owners, especially in today's economy. To what degree it is a factor is something for economists to decipher. My focus is on frac families and their QOL.

We get to grow too, just like the big 4. Stop demanding that we be you RIGHT THIS MINUTE. It's not fair to expect us to do what nobody else could.

Again, I protest the attitude unfairly being assigned to me. I fully understand that now is a bad time for many pilots who are worried about keeping a job--or worse, finding one--but I thought/hoped a time of growth would offer an opportunity to you guys, at least. I try to look at frac issues from all sides, thus, I do agree that not having to furlough at Avantair would definitely look like a silver cloud to you guys. It's shiny enough for you... but that doesn't stop others from being worried.

The fear of one company undercutting another is a valid concern because it does happen-- frequently. I hate the thought of pilots' wages potentially being a part of that; if they were closer that wouldn't be an issue. I think we'd all prefer that, wouldn't we? There seems to be a spirit of camaraderie among the frac community that made me hopeful we could discuss the situation as a group. I've always supported the goal of establishing a fair industry standard that gives all of our families the professional income they deserve--regardless of where the pilots fly. I believed in industry standards when the economy was strong based on fairness. Now that we're dealing with a recession and flying is down (for most of the industry) I also see a level playing field as a necessity so that wages don't become (in any noticeable degree) a part of the ugly side of competition. Even if it takes longer to get there, I think it's a worthy goal. NJW

 

[AftCG182]

NJW, in the past I've read your posts with great respect, because you're keeping an eye on things for the sake of the family. It's no secret... I show up for work every week for one reason- my daughter, and thus my respect for your posts. Thank you.

But, I've gotta tell you that the posts in this thread reflect a person whose interests are self-serving. I think that you're feeling a bit threatened by our modest/sustainable wages, because maybe, just maybe they might have a negative effect on your bottom line (and your family's security as a natural by-product).

Let me assure you that our pay scale is not going to affect your bottom line/level of security for your family. Your union is much too strong to let that happen.

Please, don't feel threatened. Just let us work our way to sustainability and profitability. Stirring the pot over here isn't going to help anyone.

Thanks...

 

[HazMat]

NJW once again 5 years in service at avantair pays more. I know this is threatening to you and your cause but ignoring it will not make it go away. It is pretty obvious that upgrade times at Netjets have slipped and as a result this will impact the pilots expected salaries. You have plenty to focus on at Netjets why dont you do that. We are fine.

 

[wacoflyr]

Again, I have to protest. NJW, you simply do not know much about my company. You say our executives are overcompensated and our pilots are underpaid. How do you know that those bonuses were actually accepted? How can you possibly know what our work rules are? You want to be inclusive, but you tell us what is wrong with us before you ask the opinions of those who would actually know. So, NJW, let me ask you. Have you seen a single post from an active Avantair pilot that seemed even vaguely discontented? I can't remember any. And yet you tell me that I am undercompensated. Please, let me be the judge of that, and I will happily refrain from suggesting that I know anything about the virtues or problems that may or may not be occuring at NetJets. That way I can continue to feed my family safe in the knowledge that my company is profitable, growing, and content, and you can rest easy certain that you have not caused harm where you did not mean to.

Again, I appreciate the civil discourse, if not the intent.

Regards, Wacoflyr

 

[brokeflyer]

NJW, leave this alone please. You are making us look like a$s holes. These guys are all grown up and take care of their own issues.

 

[glasspilot]

The fear of one company undercutting another is a valid concern because it does happen-- frequently. I hate the thought of pilots' wages potentially being a part of that; if they were closer that wouldn't be an issue.

Avantair is undercutting the big 4. That's a fact and it's not disputed. But it's not being done because of pilot pay. It's being done because of the plane we operate. My airplane generates 20% of it's lift from it's fuselage. Every plane NetJets flies gets ZERO lift form it's fuselage. In fact, every NetJets planes gets less than zero lift from the fuselage, they get drag too.

The point is it's not my pay that allows Avantair to undercut. It's a plane that goes just as high, goes 9% slower, but burns 60% less gas, and has a bigger cabin.

How about you rail on Planesense for awhile. They fly the "other" turbo prop fractional and their 5yr CA is listed on Airline Pilot Central as only 56K. That's WAY WAY WAY less than Avantair.

I asked before what 5yr NetJet Captains made when NetJets was on it's six year mark. You replied with some sillyness. So what was it? When RTS ran NetJets for 6 years, what was the 5yr Captain pay rate. I'll even let you adjust for inflation. Go on. Spill it. You want to compare apples to apples? Then post what a 5yr NetJet Captain made in 1992. Until then stop insulting me and my family by complaining how little I make.


GP
.11

 

[netjetwife]

Glass, I didn't understand your question at first because you guys focus way more on the age of each company than I do. It's a valid question but one that would require lots of research to do a fair comparison--economics of the time, frac market back then, company financial backing...etc..etc... It sounds interesting; I look forward to your report... But even if it turned out to be about the same what difference would that make? The NJA pilotgroup wouldn't do things the same way again, knowing how it turned out. They were underpaid waaay too long. I think all the fracs can learn something from each other.

I know I learn a lot from posting with you guys. I've never heard of Planesense. Now, hopefully, that admission doesn't upset BF who's worried about me talking to you guys about issues we're all affected by. Likewise, I didn't know your plane burned 60% less gas. That's impressive. From an environmental aspect, especially, I hope it motivates other manufacturers and frac companies to follow suit.

BF, hopefully Avantair pilots and other FI members are fair enough and mature enough not to hold my curiosity and concern about the industry against others. I feel it would be rude of me to ignore their questions after asking my own and I've always believed that greater understanding comes with increased discussion of the issues.

Waco, I'm trying to learn. Please be patient and understand that I do have good intentions. I want to see all the frac pilots respected and compensated like the professionals they are. I didn't say something is wrong with Avantair pilots. It's the big gaps in frac pay that I find unfair. My strong support for the Options pilotgroup should tell you guys that. As for discontented posts--not recently but there have been some in the past and I have also exchanged PMs with Avantair pilots who wanted to see more pilot involvement there.

Haz, I agree that 5 yr service pay should be studied--not ignored. Had I not posted with you guys I may have missed that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, so that I can follow the issue.

Aft, I'm glad to be able to tell you that you've missed the mark by a mile. It's not my family's income that concerns me. (I fully encourage those in the military to go for the retirement pay as it makes a huge difference and brings a lot of peace of mind and security.) Aside from my basic dislike of unbalanced situations where there isn't a logical justification, my concern stems from knowing that one group's payscale does affect others. We saw that when many frac pilots got a raise after the NJ pilots did and I know that frac pay--industry wide--is dissected at the bargaining table. I think increased wages at Avantair could help the Flt Ops pilotgroup. Additionally, if your 5yr pay is better than that for NJ FOs then that could be used to help them out when the contract is amended.

Readers, at my house we regularly discuss the plight of many other aviation families. I firmly believe that we're all in this together and I've never meant to slight any of you. My apologies to those who misunderstood me; apparently I didn't express myself clearly enough. Best Wishes, NJW

 

[wacoflyr]

NJW, no one in the above posts misunderstood that you wanted to comment about our company's compensation package in a manner that was less than complimentary. We got one of your sad faces. Remember, there is no firmer base from which to make sweeping judgements than complete ignorance. We tried, in our varied ways, to explain to you that you were mistaken, and that we did not want your interference, no matter how well intentioned. You simply do not understand what is going on here, or what our quality of life is truly like. As an example, did you know that we almost never sit ready at the FBO? We stay in our hotels until we are truly needed. I frequently see NetJets guys sitting around at the FBO's, but the fact is I can only guess that they have a different policy, and that it may or may not work for them. Should I get upset that they might have work rules that are inferior to my own? I doubt that they would appreciate my interference. Do you see what I mean? One and all, we suggested that you please stay out of our business. Why would you then ignore our main point, while answering the minor ones?

Increasingly frustrated,

Wacoflyr

 

[C425Driver]

C425, I'm only advocating that pilots speak up and seek credit for their contribution What makes you think we haven't? We just got a raise for our FO's - I guess that's not enough for you; how they interact with their management depends on the relationship they have. We have a good relationship. Obviously, each group can go it alone, but there is the viewpoint that more is to be gained from working together and I agree with that perspective. Please don't falsely claim that I'm disappointed in Avantair pilots. I have great respect for pilots, in general, and think frac pilots, particularly, work very hard. I'm disappointed that your company is growing but your wages aren't--yet. We are part of OUR company. When you said you were disappointed in Avantair you included us. I'm frustrated that this industry (actually, aviation in general) is quick to recognize upper management/executives with generous salaries, bonuses, stock options, etc but much slower to reward (in some cases even respect) Who are you to say we're not respected? pilots who are the front-line employees charged with customer service and safety.

I object to the term "harassing" that is not my intention, nor my attitude. From someone on the recieving end of your comments, I firmly disagree and stand behind my use of the work "harass". About your examples: SWA has a history of respecting employees and paying fairly. In the early days of SWA, they were paid much less than their peers, but still made a livable wage. That helped them achieve their market share and eventually made their pilots the highest paid 737 crews in the country. Unfortunately, NJA was slow to catch on and many broken promises preceded the current contract. Many NJA pilots will tell you that they waited too long to speak up. I'm not proposing instant and exact NJ payscales, Then what are you proposing? I asked you that before and still no answer. You do have a solution in mind, don't you? but I do firmly believe that Avantair pilots, along with their peers deserve to be in the same ballpark. I asked you in a previous post how you propose this happen without negatively affecting our bottom line and still no answer - I'm seeing a trend here. Detailed solutions are the purvey of those directly involved, chosen to represent their group in whatever capacity the majority deems best. Apparently, in your opinion none of us are doing a good job of it. If you are going to continue to harass us I suggest you offer up at least one solution. As we all know, I'm part of the support structure. I'm a cheerleader according to some here... Yes, you have been called a cheerleader. Reminds me of a not so funny version of the Molly Shannon and Will Ferrel SNL skit - they make a lot of noise, think everyone loves them, not very good at what they do and are generally annoying.

I do concede that my knowledge of the NJA pilots struggle for professional compensation affects my outlook and makes it harder for me to have faith in the IOU system. What is a realistic time line for wage increases at Avantair? As the one who is constantly on us about this, how about you take a stab at that answer - but we all know you will avoid it with some unartful dodge. How many quarters of posting profits does your group see as a fair time to wait? I don't know - you tell us. I ask questions because I think we can all learn something from each other. I do recognize the concept of working collectively for a common goal; Work together for a common goal? Sounds good, but that would require that we agree to work with you. We're doing just fine over here. If we need anything from you we know where to find you. I just tend to take a broader view and look for improvements for frac families industry wide.NJW

Ever notice that you don't get too many positive responses from our pilots on here? Ever wonder why?

 

[C425Driver]

Well said, Waco! Thanks!

 

[illinipilot]

NJW once again 5 years in service at avantair pays more..

HM,

Just so we're clear, according to APC (I know that you mentioned that those payscales are inaccurate but that's the info that I have), A 5th year captain at Avantair makes $4000 more that a fifth year NJ FO on the 7 and 7, $1000 less that an FO on the 15 day flex, and $9000 less than a FO on the 18 day schedule.

I do realize that doesn't take into account any of the voluntary measures, but it also doesn't factor in any overtime. BTW I don't know how overtime at Avantair is handled, so I certaintly can't speak for their additional earnings either. I also hope the best for both pilot groups.

IP

 

[HazMat]

We work a 7 and 7 schedule.

 

[netjetwife]

After taking a short break from the discussion, I can now see things much clearer. It's amazing what a new pair of contacts can do... For those pilotgroups who don't have employee paid health care, I strongly recommend it. With today's prices it's easy to see why insurance has become a staple of professional compensation. All of our frac families deserve it. Hopefully, in the future we'll see insurance coverage become as common as the 7&7 has. That schedule became the industry standard when it was made the default schedule in the 2005 NJA contract. There's a lot to be said for having the largest frac pave the way. It just makes sense that majority = standard.

My mention of standards...be it health care, schedules, or pay...is only meant to acknowledge and discuss the prevailing conditions in the industry today because we are all affected by them and I strongly believe that all frac families deserve the same standard of living that comes with a professional compensation package and fair work rules. Noting that some frac pilots/families aren't yet getting their due is a recognition that there is progress to be made still. My comments are NOT meant to be uncomplimentary to those who are working toward the goal. Prior to the 2007 IBB contract at NJA, I mentioned the low pay of NJA pilots many many times and none of them were insulted. I post right beside the Flt Ops pilots complaining with them about their low pay and they appreciate my moral support and respect.

I fully admit that I have a lot to learn about Avantair and I'm willing to do so. I think it's great that you guys just got a raise. If that had been posted along with news of their growth I think this thread would have developed differently. Likewise, I'm glad to hear that those posting here have a good relationship w/management. Hopefully, that is also true for your fellow pilots.

C425 you took my respect comment way out of context--look again, I was just speaking generally of all aviation. You claim that I'm harassing you...(I'm increasingly frustrated, too, Waco) but a review of this thread will find me offering support and stating my respect while you have made personal insults. I'm comfortable leaving it to readers to decide. I've had plenty of positive responses in PMs from Avantair pilots.

Waco, the differences between the fracs is of interest to me and something I want to understand. I did try to gracefully bow out of this thread when it was obvious you guys were impatient with me, but the posts and questions directed at me kept coming. I felt it would be rude not to respond. I'm not trying to ignore or dodge anything but there are numerous posts to respond to, some demanding specific numbers and/or plans when I had already said I was just trying to talk about things in a broad, general sense. I've asked questions that have gone unanswered, also. Obviously, there are numerous viewpoints and issues to discuss.

I'm all for civil discourse that leads to greater understanding. If you guys want to continue the discussion I'll he happy to participate--after our family camping trip. Likewise, I can wish you all well and bow out now. If that is your preference then simply leave my name out of your posts and don't ask me any questions... Regards, NJW

 

[C425Driver]

Likewise, I can wish you all well and bow out now. If that is your preference then simply leave my name out of your posts and don't ask me any questions... Regards, NJW

I'm good with that. Have a nice trip.

 

[glasspilot]

Me too, enjoy you're time away.

 

[netjetwife]

Thank you!

 

[Dilligaff]

I'm with Glass and C425, please bow out and move on. Thanks.

Enjoy your vacation.

 

[HazMat]

Count me in too

 

[SoFineSoFLA]

Just be glad Billy Mays didn't end up being Avantairs pitchman! http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/entertainment/MI128010/

 

[Jetdriver125]

nothing to me because I dont' work at either place but I was told that NJA lost about 50 customers to this company this past year because of much more reasonable management fee's and with this economic time everyone's looking to save.. just thought I would pass that along .. and that was FBO talk so who knows...

 

[AftCG182]

nothing to me because I dont' work at either place but I was told that NJA lost about 50 customers to this company this past year because of much more reasonable management fee's and with this economic time everyone's looking to save.. just thought I would pass that along .. and that was FBO talk so who knows...

Ok... There's something called discretion. We should exercise a bit of it here. Now's not the time to "innocently" quote statistics like this one. Our brothers/sisters at Netjets might have to do a bit of belt tightening, so right now we need to show some solidarity with them.

 

[wacoflyr]

I'm with Aft. I don't know Netjet's business, any more than they know ours. But I respect them, and wish them well. NetJets has led the way, and I'm grateful. I hope everybody at all the fracs is working again soon.

Best wishes, Wacoflyr