Avantair Accident

[Dgpr]

.... All aircraft are certified to fly on one engine all day long on as long you have fuel......

That will be news to those of us who flew/fly 727's and 747's.

Blanket statements and Blanket JUDGEMENTs don't do anyone any justice. If I have one engine in the bag and other issues on board, I'm happy to get it on the ground and walk away from it. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Until you're forced into the same predicament, just say "good job" to the pilot who pulled it off and offer support and encouragement for the upcoming inquisition.

 

[Nick5600]

That will be news to those of us who flew/fly 727's and 747's.

Blanket statements and Blanket JUDGEMENTs don't do anyone any justice. If I have one engine in the bag and other issues on board, I'm happy to get it on the ground and walk away from it. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Until you're forced into the same predicament, just say "good job" to the pilot who pulled it off and offer support and encouragement for the upcoming inquisition.

I have been in the same place 5 times in my career, and I always managed to land on the right runway... I'm just glad it was VMC!

 

[GIVSP]

For you Piaggio operaters... Has Piaggio sent out any kind of Special airworthiness bulletin regarding the Flint incident? Just wondering if there alerting operaters. Thanks

 

[glasspilot]

No such bulletins that I'm aware of. I'm not sure what they would send.

 

[G4dude]

Not taking away from your post, but what did that have to do with what you quoted?

My point was that a US pilot would be more likely (maybe) to realize you can't say anything to the press after an incident. He told me later he was very glad I had warned him, that he otherwise would have allowed himself to be interviewed by the local reporterette.

 

[G4dude]

are you sure it isn't the union's fault?

LOL. I tried and tried to figure out a way to blame it on SOME union SOMEWHERE, but was unsuccessful. Cheers!

 

[brokeflyer]

LOL. I tried and tried to figure out a way to blame it on SOME union SOMEWHERE, but was unsuccessful. Cheers!

hmmm....and why do you think that is?

 

[glasspilot]

My point was that a US pilot would be more likely (maybe) to realize you can't say anything to the press after an incident. He told me later he was very glad I had warned him, that he otherwise would have allowed himself to be interviewed by the local reporterette.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Here is what happened...

I said:

Nobody here knows the details. Let's just wait until the facts come out before we jump on this guys career. I've flown with the Captain of this flight and he seemed competent to me. Whatever the circumstances let the investigation run it's course and determine what factors were at play.

[FONT=&quot]Again, glad nobody was hurt.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]


And then RCA said:


[/FONT]

How many years have we gone round and round glass?
Finally, we found something to agree on.
Great Post!

And then you quoted RCA and said:

[FONT=&quot]

I did an emergency landing one time, smoke in the cockpit, and I learned something new: My FO was from Europe, and if I hadn't told him to not say anything to the Press, he wouldn't have known. Make sure NOBODY talks to the Press, period.

What did that have to do with what RCA quoted? I get that non-USA pilots may be more likely to not understand to not talk to the press...but RCA said nothing to that point. What did your post have to do with RCA's post? You quoted it. What's the relevance?
[/FONT]

 

[brokeflyer]

glass....he dont understand. you're just gonna confuse him more.

 

[X-rated]

I have been in the same place 5 times in my career, and I always managed to land on the right runway... I'm just glad it was VMC!

First, you unprofessionally jump to conclusions about the incident before you have the facts which hints at your poor decision making process, then you state you've lost 5 engines in your relatively short and limited career.

I won't stoop to your level and make assertions about the airworthyness of the airplanes you fly, or you ability to properly manage their engines because I don't have all the facts. However, it is safe to say you are either extremely unlucky, or there is another problem. Then again, maybe you're just FOS?

Be careful with those glass houses. You clearly have an ego problem and think this could never happen to you. Did you even listen to the tape? There was clearly confusion about the their position relative to the runway, and they stated they lost their gyros. They were asking for help, and instead they got cleared to land any runway. They were under pressure in an unusual situation. If you believe something similar could never happen to you, I feel sorry for you and your passengers. You have no idea what else they may have been dealing with yet you're happy criticize them. Does that make you somehow feel superior?

 

[GIVSP]

Thanks Glass, Is Avantair notifing there owners of the incident? You would think as an owner, they would want to be notified.

 

[OPECJet]

No such bulletins that I'm aware of. I'm not sure what they would send.

"If you think you might have an engine failure, don't take off. If you have an engine failure in flight, don't land."

In Italian of course.

 

[G4dude]

That doesn't make any sense to me. Here is what happened...

I said:




[FONT=&quot]And then RCA said:[/FONT]





And then you quoted RCA and said:




[FONT=&quot]What did that have to do with what RCA quoted? I get that non-USA pilots may be more likely to not understand to not talk to the press...but RCA said nothing to that point. What did your post have to do with RCA's post? You quoted it. What's the relevance? [/FONT]

I was just adding additional info as a cautionary tale. My Norwegian friend would have gotten in trouble if I hadn't mentioned the press restriction to him. Just trying to keep that from happening to someone else, that's all.

 

[G4dude]

First, you unprofessionally jump to conclusions about the incident before you have the facts which hints at your poor decision making process, then you state you've lost 5 engines in your relatively short and limited career.

I won't stoop to your level and make assertions about the airworthyness of the airplanes you fly, or you ability to properly manage their engines because I don't have all the facts. However, it is safe to say you are either extremely unlucky, or there is another problem. Then again, maybe you're just FOS?

Be careful with those glass houses. You clearly have an ego problem and think this could never happen to you. Did you even listen to the tape? There was clearly confusion about the their position relative to the runway, and they stated they lost their gyros. They were asking for help, and instead they got cleared to land any runway. They were under pressure in an unusual situation. If you believe something similar could never happen to you, I feel sorry for you and your passengers. You have no idea what else they may have been dealing with yet you're happy criticize them. Does that make you somehow feel superior?

You have to admit, an engine out landing is not supposed to end up on with the plane on it's back. I suspect, without any facts, that the captain might have been hurrying to get his damaged plane on the ground. It is a pretty normal thing to want to do, but not the right thing, unless you are on fire.

 

[X-rated]

You have to admit, an engine out landing is not supposed to end up on with the plane on it's back. I suspect, without any facts, that the captain might have been hurrying to get his damaged plane on the ground. It is a pretty normal thing to want to do, but not the right thing, unless you are on fire.

Well of course I agree, but none of us know what other issues may have played a part. Wait for the investigation to be completed. If the airplane is in fact not capable of a single engine landing in a 15kt crosswind without ending up on it's back, perhaps there should be a single engine crosswind limitation. Or, at the very least, an AD should be issued to fix the grabby breaks. I suspect there were things this pilot would do differently had he to do it again, but that's beside the point. Flinging dung before the final report comes out is irresponsible and poor form.

 

[rettofly]

Well of course I agree, but none of us know what other issues may have played a part. Wait for the investigation to be completed. If the airplane is in fact not capable of a single engine landing in a 15kt crosswind without ending up on it's back, perhaps there should be a single engine crosswind limitation. Or, at the very least, an AD should be issued to fix the grabby breaks. I suspect there were things this pilot would do differently had he to do it again, but that's beside the point. Flinging dung before the final report comes out is irresponsible and poor form.

Max demonstrated crosswind for landing is 25KT. No reduction specified for single engine landing. Normal cross-wind technique works just fine on one or two engines.

Brakes aren't grabby per se, but they are powerful and could lock up if there's little weight on the wheels when they're applied..

FWIW, I'm guessing most of us have a few occasions where we would do things differently in a do-over. Like you said, let's wait until the investigation is over before we draw conclusions.

 

[Nick5600]

First, you unprofessionally jump to conclusions about the incident before you have the facts which hints at your poor decision making process, then you state you've lost 5 engines in your relatively short and limited career.

I won't stoop to your level and make assertions about the airworthyness of the airplanes you fly, or you ability to properly manage their engines because I don't have all the facts. However, it is safe to say you are either extremely unlucky, or there is another problem. Then again, maybe you're just FOS?

Be careful with those glass houses. You clearly have an ego problem and think this could never happen to you. Did you even listen to the tape? There was clearly confusion about the their position relative to the runway, and they stated they lost their gyros. They were asking for help, and instead they got cleared to land any runway. They were under pressure in an unusual situation. If you believe something similar could never happen to you, I feel sorry for you and your passengers. You have no idea what else they may have been dealing with yet you're happy criticize them. Does that make you somehow feel superior?

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines. The 1st on was on a test flight after a hot section, and the second was for a fire light... That by the way didn't extinguish. Oh yeah I had to shoot a ILS with that too, and guess what I ended up on the right runway. NOW look at a crew that had a failure for what ever reason, and that can't for whatever reason distinguish SOUTH from WEST landing with a quartering tail wind. I dont give a damn if they had no gyros those big strips of pavement have numbers on them, and while I have never flown a piaggo I'm guessing they have a whiskey compass. Further all I said is what the NTSB would likely say. So if you wanna hang me out to dry go right ahead. But never for one second call me a crappy pilot, or one with a big ego. If you know me you would know I'm a very very conservative pilot, and that sir has been learned from experience. Something maybe your limited experience with no engine failures has yet to teach you, and perhaps your passengers should be the scared ones.

 

[AftCG182]

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines...

Well, I HAVE flown the Piaggio. LOTS in fact, to the tune of nearly a couple thousand hours. Like you, I have two single-engine emergency landings. Both of mine in the Piaggio; one for loss of oil pressure and the other for a failure of the compressor bleed valve that caused my ITT to spike and settle on an ITT that required securing the engine. I think that qualifies me to say that I know what I'm talking about.

That preface was so that I could state that my opinion as an informed expert. As the Incident Captain's first single-engine emergency landing, his priority in that chaotic moment was the wellness-preservation of his pax. The sh1tty handling of the situation by the rookie (or unprofessional) tower controller was a major (if not causal) contributing factor in this incident.

So, if anyone's interpretation of our incident as "harsh", it's your interpretation. Lastly, our whisky compass might find a happier home as a paperweight. If you were in his seat and had relied on that for guidance in this situation, right now we'd be debating your airmanship, because that compass would probably have directed you to land in the middle of a lake, town, or hillside.

While I don't speak officially for my Company, as an individual I'd like to ask you to kiss our collective azzes. Have a great evening. Hope your future single-engine emergency landings are as successful as the ones in your past. If your incident ends up in flightinfo, I'm going to dissect you like a middle school frog.

Good day.

 

[X-rated]

WOW! That is pretty harsh. If there is anybody here drawing conclusions I think it would be you... First off I haven't update my profile in some time, so you can add on a DA-50 type rating and several thousand hours. So that puts me at 3 types, and about as many hours as you. You might also note that I was a crew member on DC-3s, and Convairs. So if you think I have a lot of failures in my career its because I flew radial engine airplanes. During that time I learned a lot, and how to handle a emergency. I have however shut down 2 turbine engines. The 1st on was on a test flight after a hot section, and the second was for a fire light... That by the way didn't extinguish. Oh yeah I had to shoot a ILS with that too, and guess what I ended up on the right runway. NOW look at a crew that had a failure for what ever reason, and that can't for whatever reason distinguish SOUTH from WEST landing with a quartering tail wind. I dont give a damn if they had no gyros those big strips of pavement have numbers on them, and while I have never flown a piaggo I'm guessing they have a whiskey compass. Further all I said is what the NTSB would likely say. So if you wanna hang me out to dry go right ahead. But never for one second call me a crappy pilot, or one with a big ego. If you know me you would know I'm a very very conservative pilot, and that sir has been learned from experience. Something maybe your limited experience with no engine failures has yet to teach you, and perhaps your passengers should be the scared ones.

You know what, I almost felt badly about my tone, but I just can't because you still don't get it. 5 engine failures or not, you were not there for this one, and you simply don't know what happened. Second guessing another pilot without the details is foolish. Maybe the guy screwed up, maybe there was something going on you don't know about. My point was a 15kt crosswind should not by itself have caused the airplane to flip over, and he was in fact cleared to land on any runway. Would it have been better to land into the wind? Of course, but until you know all the factors at play, you're just babbling.

I am impressed though. Did you really have to shoot a single engine straight in ILS in a modern jet airplane and then somehow find the right runway? I stand corrected. Clearly, you are the next Sky King. Keep up the good work.

 

[Nick5600]

Yes shooting a ILS with a modern jet single engine is much harder than shooting a visual approach to the right runway single engine.

 

[Nick5600]

FURTHER he was cleared to land on 27 at first, he was only cleared to land on any runway after the tower realized he was landing on 18. Notice her scrambling to clear the fire equipment off runway 18?

 

[X-rated]

Yes shooting a ILS with a modern jet single engine is much harder than shooting a visual approach to the right runway single engine.

Maybe for you... Most of professional pilots find comfort in an ILS. That's one way we know we're lined up on the right runway and that we're on the proper glidepath. I assume you're actually referring to an IMC approach. If that is the case, I would think you would have been very thankful for the ILS.

I don't know why, but for some reason I just can't help feeling a good portion of your time may have been logged on Microsoft Flight Simulator.

 

[Nick5600]

yes as a matter of fact it was IMC, and yes we still had a fire light on. None the less we stayed calm and didn't put it into the side of mountain. While I never played microsoft flight simulator, I'm gonna buy it fly a p-180 give myself 10 sm and vfr conditions. Further I'll fail an engine, and all gyros. Then if i'm really lucky I'll see if I can find my way to runway 27. I'm out the door right now to bestbuy to buy it! I'll let you know how it goes... Now then ask yourself where would you rather be with a fire light? Would it be visual, or with IMC conditions? Then when you answer go @!@# yourself.

 

[X-rated]

See, I just knew you were a Microsoft FS kind of guy. Good luck with those flight profiles Skippy.:laugh::laugh:

 

[Nick5600]

Damn you really have problems keeping up with threads...
First off I was the one that posted the audio. Second, and again I have never played flight simulator. Try again cowboy.

 

[X-rated]

Damn you really have problems keeping up with threads...
First off I was the one that posted the audio. Second, and again I have never played flight simulator. Try again cowboy.

Are you mildly retarded? I'm pretty sure I'm keeping up just fine thanks, but let's see how I'm doing. To sum up, most of your flight time has been logged on MFS. You're pretty sure you are god's gift to aviation, and you don't like ILS's because they make it harder to find the runway. Also, Clouds are scary. Does that seem about right?

 

[X-rated]

Okay, It's possible I may have crossed the line. I was just having a little fun because my airplane is broken and I'm board.

Fly Safe.

 

[Nick5600]

Yes I'll admit IMC is is a little scary when in a emergency. Secondly and again I have not every even played Microsoft flight simulator. Why don't you tell me about the last time you had a engine failure. Simulators full motion or home PC doesn't count... I'm off till Sunday, so I'm game!

 

[wacoflyr]

I don't want to back seat quarterback here,....
http://moses.bz/news/2011/11/16/bishop-airport-plane-crash-tower-audio-11-16-2011.html

Really? Well, which is it? Do you want to second guess him, or not? Make up your tiny mind, and then own it, like an adult, presuming you are one. It is at best hypocrisy to claim a moral ground while slinging mud; at worst, it is cowardice.

 

[imacdog]

That preface was so that I could state that my opinion as an informed expert. As the Incident Captain's first single-engine emergency landing, his priority in that chaotic moment was the wellness-preservation of his pax. The sh1tty handling of the situation by the rookie (or unprofessional) tower controller was a major (if not causal) contributing factor in this incident.

How does that work?