Automation / FMS use at your company

[matchthehatch]

Having experience with 121 operations at both regional and majors, part 91K and 135 operations, and currently corporate operations, I feel qualified to draw comparisons. I’ve seen 121 procedures that rely on the “more is better” mentality, which I believe to be unsafe. I’ve seen corporate departments whose pilots make up procedures as they go. There’s nothing safe about that. While one may not be better than the other in terms of safety and efficiency, I felt much safer at least having a set of standardized procedures. G200, if you’ve never seen poorly standardized operations at your present and previous departments, then you are very fortunate, and probably an exception rather than the norm in the corporate world.
To continue to utilize procedures just because “that’s the way we’ve always done it” is short-sighted and just plain lazy. While I believe that the adage “If it aint broke, don’t fix it” often holds true, part of our jobs as professional pilots is to constantly evaluate the procedures that we use and question their efficacy.
Bbwest, while I commend you for trying to make significant changes that obviously need to be made, it sounds like your problems are rooted in the personalities of your pilots. I happen to be very fortunate to work with pilots who genuinely care about improving our operations, are flexible enough to change when needed, humble enough to admit being wrong, and interested in doing things “the right way” for our department. I wish you the best.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Agree with Boiler's first post with the addition: Initiated Transfer. Doing so letss you check your inputs and allows a "do over" if you finger fire the box. It is only a couple extra button presses but worth it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Hey G200... Embraer Lineage Captain? Glad to see you finally stepped up to a *real* airplane. (That title made me laugh, "Colonel.") Haha!

 

[ksu_aviator]

You dont need to be in a 777 to do an FMS overlay approach. You can do it in almost any aircraft with an fms.

Who ever said you did?

FMS goes out, shooting an ndb at night in bad wx?? Come on holmes, why didnt you add a meteor shower and a 4000' runway to your less than plausible example?

Because that isn't the way it happened for me. I was shooting the RNAV 33 into UVA when the unit went black. We continued to the NDB, did the procedure turn and shot the approach green source, at night near minimums. But I've also lost the FMS departing out of Eagle on an unforecast RAIM issue (too low to pick up enough VORs for reliable navigation) and I've had to abandon the FMS because the FO screwed it up. My point is, that that FMS is not some PFM box that you should program and rely on as if it will never fail. Your argument seems to be based on the idea that that box (that is probably still running Fortran) is so f'n smart that it will never lead you astray. All I'm saying is, don't be so naive and plan for the day when it will fail.

I could not agree more with the fact that we in the corporate world will see many more Non Precis Appchs than 121 guys. I will say again though, not my idea not my data. Read the 2 pages on it in Book 1 of the Jepps. Why do you think they went to all the trouble to add VNAV glideslope data to so many(nearly ALL) Non Precis Appchs in Jepps?

Way off track here. In the face of the personal attacks, I will reiterate, there is a best and safest way to do almost all we do in the cockpit. None of which was figured out by me. Meanwhile I have heard nothing to lead me to believe much different than what I thought when I started this which is pretty much summed up in double psych's post.

The best way, the most logical way, the way with some science behind it - thats my favorite way. What I "like" or "I've always done it that way" is for the less than professionals in this business.

Agreed. But...don't rely on automation to the point of incompetence. Fly some VFR VOR approaches. Track an NDB from time to time. Build a hold in your head. Plan your own descent. The mental acuity that you'll gain from being able to throw everything out the window and fly your basic six will make you look even smarter than you think you are.

 

[satpak77]

This is an age old argument, or discussion. "How much automation to use" etc.

Personally, I hand fly until above 2000 FT AGL and don't bring up GPS/FMS NAV until I am on the route/SID/etc per old fashioned analog nav. If it agrees, I bring it up.

My area is surrounded by mountains so I don't need any GPS or FMS hiccups while I fly the supposedly-correct departure per the box.

On the arrival, I usually rely more heavily on GPS/FMS NAV and will commonly back up VOR approaches, ILS waypoints, etc, with the GPS.

At all times, GPS nav is backed up with VOR freqs and enroute course is monitored by PNF via putting the USA Today down and checking the chart....

 

[NCherches]

My area is surrounded by mountains so I don't need any GPS or FMS hiccups while I fly the supposedly-correct departure per the box...

I would almost argue that you are much more likely to have a hiccup with VHF Navigation than with an GPS/FMS... although pilot's do screw up programming the FMS/GPS way more so than they do with the VHF stuff...

 

[satpak77]

I would almost argue that you are much more likely to have a hiccup with VHF Navigation than with an GPS/FMS... although pilot's do screw up programming the FMS/GPS way more so than they do with the VHF stuff...

While I agree it is possible, "more likely" I would respectfully take the side that analog nav is less likely. Or maybe I need to get smarter and/or trust more FMS programming (yes that is prob true).

 

[hotwing]

While it sounds like you work with clowns (if not exaggerated somewhat?)....you will get the same EXACT response from me if you start telling me what Netjets or your airline does/did.

Really, people dont care. If you liked it at your airline why did you leave? If Netjets intriques you - go fly a GV there for 85-100K instead of the normal 150-175K. Nobody cares.

FWIW - if I was so concerned I would really inquire about SOPs/Callouts/Standards etc in an interview. You can tell pretty quick if an operation tries to go by the book or if they are cowboys. Screen your employers, I sure would.

This honestly sounds like a personal problem, not a Pt 91 in general problem.

Good Luck.

Sorry, but you are WRONG! I left a fortune 5 flight operation and went to the airlines because of pilots like you... I was at a regional (Skywest) before I went to the G550/G450 Flacon 900EX / Falcon 50EX EMB145, B737 Corp. flight dept and so, with the 121 regional time, I knew how thingsw should have been and I could not handle this loose approach and lack of standardization and went back to the airlines, but onto a major... I was at one of the largest, and oldest flight departments too... It was CRAZY! This is NOT the way to fly large corporate jets... undstandardized and non procedural is NOT the way that the FAA or anyone else intends us to fly these planes... When I was getting my G550 type at KSAV FSI I had a retired Delta guy giving the training and I was flying with a part 91 only guy and the evaluator always commented how much better my CRM and related skills were as compared to the Part 91 only pilots... Sorry... You are WRONG!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Im being told I'm "WRONG!" on Flightinfo by a guy with Fox News in his profile and an avatar of Bill O'Reilly.

This is getting goddam good!

BTW --- I fly a GULFSTREAM, I'm a Senior International Training Captain, I do it MY way, I dont care about YOUR way (or your lame airlines) and NO we dont hire airline guys!!!!

PS -- my sim instructors always tell me I do better than the other guy too...SO THERE!!

 

[LegacyDriver]

G200!!!!!!!!!!!!rotflmao!

 

[LegacyDriver]

I do appeciate debate. Sounds like you guys are at quality operations. Actually I'm at a high quality company.....just an evolving flight department that has been a good bit behind the times. Often begin to wonder if it's me. Maybe sometimes it is

Don't admit you "don't know everything" on this board. That's like blood in the water for the sharks!!!!!! God forbid a pilot actually admit he isn't a god. Knowledge is power. Flightinfo is a good place to find it if you can sift wheat from chaff. Good luck.

 

[CA1900]

Don't admit you "don't know everything" on this board. That's like blood in the water for the sharks!!!!!! God forbid a pilot actually admit he isn't a god...

This was my last meeting with my chief pilot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqeC3BPYTmE

 

[NCherches]

Not going to lie... I hated flying with those who were WAAAAAAY too into procedures although it's always hard to bash them for being over cautious....

I mean if you have a natural abilty, some common sense, and maybe some good training you might not need to run takeoff distance numbers when departing Salina, Kansas in a straight wing citaiton...

Call my a cowboy...the ladies do

 

[7on7Off]

I mean if you have a natural abilty, some common sense, and maybe some good training you might not need to run takeoff distance numbers when departing Salina, Kansas in a straight wing citaiton...

Call my a cowboy...the ladies do

And so the accident chain begins

 

[LegacyDriver]

and so the accident chain begins

Ha ha ha!