August 1/2 NJA interviews

[RP170]

Has anyone gotten the call for their aircraft assignment and class dates yet that interviewed on August 1/2? I did e-mail pilot recruitment and they said I would receive an offer and to expect a call either last week or possibly as late as this week. Just curious as if anyone had received the calls yet?

 

[Allen1]

Don't come here it's going to be a long long long time as an FO at 40,000 a year. Upgrades are at a snails pace and now captains are bidding from the small planes to other small planes slowing upgrades even more.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Don't come here it's going to be a long long long time as an FO at 40,000 a year. Upgrades are at a snails pace and now captains are bidding from the small planes to other small planes slowing upgrades even more.

Hopefully IBB will produce something that helps to ease the sting of the long wait for upgrades along with the ill-advised dumb-a-cile program.

If not, you can certainly leave at any time because there's no training contract as of November 2005.

 

[Jafo73]

Don't come here it's going to be a long long long time as an FO at 40,000 a year. Upgrades are at a snails pace and now captains are bidding from the small planes to other small planes slowing upgrades even more.

And what does this have to do with the guys question about if anyone from his interview has heard anything? The payscale for FO's at year 5 ain't the greatest, but it's published and everyone should make sure they can live with for that long.

 

[Outta Here]

The crappy FO pay is in the union's crosshairs

 

[popgoesbubble]

Hey Allen's just stating the facts guys anyone that does come here is looking at least a 5 year Upgrade. Sorry but thats the facts I wish it wearn't true but until we can stop guys that are afraid to upgrade into anything bigger then a Cat 1 plane here its gonna be awhile.

Just look back at the first encore + bid award the guy that was 575 on the list was originally awarded a 800xpc but declinded it to go to the encore+ from the Ultra?

The company and the Union need to go to 1 Pay scale here to stop all this movement and also put language in that if you move from Cat 1 to Cat 1 or down bid from Cat 3 or 2 to Cat 1 it's a 5 year seat Lock.

Were lossing alot of money at Netjets due to high training cost because a select few have made a living buy chasing new airplane types on property because they know they will never fly until we get enough planes for that fleet type. And looking at the latest bid I'm sure those BE 400xp captains that bid the encore+ are in that group judging by there seniority numbers here.

But back to the real question Netjets is still a great company to work for compaired to a Regional airline. but be prepared to not upgrade for awhile not as long at Delta, UAL or Alaska which is + 10 Years. However, still looking at Delta looks like there doing alot of Hiring into the 75/76 and 2nd year pay is $77 hr at 85 hours a month thats about $85K at second year compared to 60 -65K here. but we don't have to commute or have crash pads, airport cars and we pocket all are per diem as we get free crew meals. But as stated IBT and the company have to address FO pay rates here otherwise were gonna lose guys to the majors.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Hey Allen's just stating the facts guys anyone that does come here is looking at least a 5 year Upgrade. Sorry but thats the facts I wish it wearn't true but until we can stop guys that are afraid to upgrade into anything bigger then a Cat 1 plane here its gonna be awhile.

Just look back at the first encore + bid award the guy that was 575 on the list was originally awarded a 800xpc but declinded it to go to the encore+ from the Ultra?

The company and the Union need to go to 1 Pay scale here to stop all this movement and also put language in that if you move from Cat 1 to Cat 1 or down bid from Cat 3 or 2 to Cat 1 it's a 5 year seat Lock.

Were lossing alot of money at Netjets due to high training cost because a select few have made a living buy chasing new airplane types on property because they know they will never fly until we get enough planes for that fleet type. And looking at the latest bid I'm sure those BE 400xp captains that bid the encore+ are in that group judging by there seniority numbers here.

Wow - that's a lot of assumption on your part. From knowing a few of the guys that are bidding from one Class 1 airframe to another Class 1 plane, some of them simply prefer the sort of flying the non-APU fleet does. Not everyone is chasing type ratings or trying to "hide out" in training.

As for going to one payscale, that's a rumor with IBB: at least, combining Classes 1-3 into a single grouping is the rumor I've heard. But that still won't stop some of those darn captains from switching fleets. Some people just want an APU and/or have the ability to fly a little more outside of the conntinental USA.

Be careful painting people with a broad brush. There are a lot of reasons why people make the fleet choices that they do and that is a seniority right in our contract.

And trust me, I'm trying to move out of my current fleet so hopefully someone can upgrade in the near future.

 

[CE750Driver]

Hey Allen's just stating the facts guys anyone that does come here is looking at least a 5 year Upgrade. Sorry but thats the facts I wish it wearn't true but until we can stop guys that are afraid to upgrade into anything bigger then a Cat 1 plane here its gonna be awhile.

Just look back at the first encore + bid award the guy that was 575 on the list was originally awarded a 800xpc but declinded it to go to the encore+ from the Ultra?

The company and the Union need to go to 1 Pay scale here to stop all this movement and also put language in that if you move from Cat 1 to Cat 1 or down bid from Cat 3 or 2 to Cat 1 it's a 5 year seat Lock.

Were lossing alot of money at Netjets due to high training cost because a select few have made a living buy chasing new airplane types on property because they know they will never fly until we get enough planes for that fleet type. And looking at the latest bid I'm sure those BE 400xp captains that bid the encore+ are in that group judging by there seniority numbers here.

Yeah, Im sure your privy to how much money Netjets is "lossing". Do you own Netjets? Cause when you say Were "lossing" money, which you meant we're, you imply that it is taking money out of your pocket. How is that happening? I know with that grammar, I'm not talking with Warren Buffet.

By the way, Im not one of those guys making a living "buy" chasing type ratings.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Wow thats good to hear CE750 Driver do you also put your arm around your FO's seat and tell him that " Your not Gay but your Boy Friend Is?"

 

[Allen1]

Wow - that's a lot of assumption on your part. From knowing a few of the guys that are bidding from one Class 1 airframe to another Class 1 plane, some of them simply prefer the sort of flying the non-APU fleet does. Not everyone is chasing type ratings or trying to "hide out" in training.

As for going to one payscale, that's a rumor with IBB: at least, combining Classes 1-3 into a single grouping is the rumor I've heard. But that still won't stop some of those darn captains from switching fleets. Some people just want an APU and/or have the ability to fly a little more outside of the conntinental USA.

Be careful painting people with a broad brush. There are a lot of reasons why people make the fleet choices that they do and that is a seniority right in our contract.

And trust me, I'm trying to move out of my current fleet so hopefully someone can upgrade in the near future.

Yep you're right it is their seniority right to do so. It's my right to get pissed at them for slowing my upgrade also. I don't have a problem with guys bidding from the ultra to a larger aircraft or bidding any larger aircraft for that matter. I do have a problem with them bidding from the ultra to another newer improved ultra with a different name and slowing down my income progression, but that's their right. I hope they get enough encore pluses on property to work their a***s for 18 days every month though. It does cost the company more money when guys keep swithcing fleets which reduces profits, and thats the truth no matter what you say. I wish the company would try to get something in the IBB to prevent guys from moving to the ultra to encore, encore plus, or 400xp and only to allow you to move up to the excel or higher once you're a captain in one of those airplanes.

 

[Dr Pepper]

RP170 - good luck.

The rest - why would anyone want to hide in training? I just finished initial and I can't see doing that again for a long long time. If FO pay was kick-a$$, I would stay where I am so I would not have to suffer another intial. FO pay won't see much, if any, change until 2010. Hopefully IBT and the departure of dumb-a-ciles will ease the money pain in years 2-5+.

 

[Wankel7]

Just wondering if any of the interview people were looking for the DFW base?

 

[Ultra Grump]

I do have a problem with them bidding from the ultra to another newer improved ultra with a different name and slowing down my income progression, but that's their right.

What a dumb-ass thing to say. Let's see: Ultra with no TCAS, crappy Honeywell avionics, weaker engines, and boots; vs Encore+ with TCAS (worth the switch alone), Collins ProLine 21 (also worth the switch alone), more powerful engines, and hot wing. No brainer. Of course you must have no brains to think that anyone should stay in the Ultra vs move to the Encore+.

I wish the company would try to get something in the IBB to prevent guys from moving to the ultra to encore, encore plus, or 400xp and only to allow you to move up to the excel or higher once you're a captain in one of those airplanes.

If that made it in there, you'd guarantee yourself commuting to your domicile until at least 2010, because it would never pass.

Some people just have no clue.


BTW - RP170, welcome aboard!

 

[popgoesbubble]

Ultra Grump

You make valid points about the Crappy little Ultra I can't disagree with you on any of those things. However, Why not go from the Ultra to say an Excel or a 800xp or an 800xpc or a CE 750 or a CE680 or a G-200 of a Falcon 2000?

When I saw a guy with a High 200# on the senority list bid to go to the encore+ from the Ultra it just doesn't make any sense anyone in the High 500# can hold almost any of these fleet types. you can't say QOL because being in the top #200 here your doing pretty well. lets just face it most of these guys haven't flown anything bigger then an Ultra and are legends in there own mind.

Oh btw RP170 welcome on board and if you get the Citation X watch out for CE750Driver. He likes is FO's Young and if you find him walking behind you and say you drop your Avtrip card on the ramp it's best just to leave it. Oh that and I hear he likes to request connecting rooms on the overnight.

 

[bosdrx]

I find it interesting that with all this stuff going on, they still say in the interview that upgrade is only 24 months. It's quite a discrepancy. Shouldn't they be honest and say "3 to 5 years" or whatever it is? But then, maybe no one would take the job. Just thinkin out loud....

 

[woota]

Still waiting for the assignment also

RP170 I interviewed on the 2nd and I am still waiting for the assignment also. I spoke to one other person who interviewed on the same date and he had the same story.

 

[NJA bound]

I find it interesting that with all this stuff going on, they still say in the interview that upgrade is only 24 months. It's quite a discrepancy. Shouldn't they be honest and say "3 to 5 years" or whatever it is? But then, maybe no one would take the job. Just thinkin out loud....

Yep, this is my 24th month and I'm 150#s (roughly another year) from upgrade.

 

[Allen1]

What a dumb-ass thing to say. Let's see: Ultra with no TCAS, crappy Honeywell avionics, weaker engines, and boots; vs Encore+ with TCAS (worth the switch alone), Collins ProLine 21 (also worth the switch alone), more powerful engines, and hot wing. No brainer. Of course you must have no brains to think that anyone should stay in the Ultra vs move to the Encore+.

If that made it in there, you'd guarantee yourself commuting to your domicile until at least 2010, because it would never pass.

Some people just have no clue.


BTW - RP170, welcome aboard!

Sorry but I already have HBA.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I find it interesting that with all this stuff going on, they still say in the interview that upgrade is only 24 months. It's quite a discrepancy. Shouldn't they be honest and say "3 to 5 years" or whatever it is? But then, maybe no one would take the job. Just thinkin out loud....

I wonder if some people aren't asking the wrong question or perhaps misinterpreting the answer. For instance, at one point last fall or so, it was factual to say that the most junior Excel captain had been here just over 2 years. One could misinterpret that to mean that upgrade on the Excel is 2 years. However, that ignores the hiring cycle that took place in 2004 and the rate of ongoing upgrades in the Excel or a lack thereof.

I do wish that people got realistic upgrade projections during the interview. It might help people like Allen1 and popgoesbubble to make their decisions on employment with a better picture of how long they'll have to wait to upgrade.

 

[Allen1]

Lets see guys leaving from the 400xp which has TCAS, Collins avionics and a hotwing. Why don't they go to the excel. The excel also has TCAS, Honeywell FMZ, hot wing and as far as I can tell goes almost everywhere the ultra goes plus they make more money.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Yep you're right it is their seniority right to do so. It's my right to get pissed at them for slowing my upgrade also.

It's good to acknowledge that they are exercising their rights under the contract that both you and I choose to work under. As for your "right" to be pissed, I suppose that's your "decision" but it does little to change the situation.

I don't have a problem with guys bidding from the ultra to a larger aircraft or bidding any larger aircraft for that matter. I do have a problem with them bidding from the ultra to another newer improved ultra with a different name and slowing down my income progression, but that's their right.

Well, we do agree that it is their right under the contract it's their right to switch aircraft. As for you having a problem with them bidding "an improved ultra", why shouldn't they be able to do that? Getting into a new program earlier can be the path to getting into the check airman, instructor, or IOE positions. Shouldn't everyone who's qualified have a chance at those positions?

As for slowing down your income progression, can you prove that factually? With the draw down of the Ultras, there will eventually be a blind displacement bid for those still in that fleet. So at that point, they'd be able to bid for a wide range of planes, including the Encore+. If that happens while you're still waiting for upgrade, would complain that the displacement bid is slowing down your income progression?

I hope they get enough encore pluses on property to work their a***s for 18 days every month though.

One can only hope but time will tell.

It does cost the company more money when guys keep swithcing fleets which reduces profits, and thats the truth no matter what you say.

It's part of the cost of doing business. Would you suggest that no one should ever be able to switch aircraft? Under our current contract, you'd preclude others from their own "income progression", as you termed it.

By the way, there's also a cost in terms of dollars and time lost on the line for someone who upgrades in type. It's not as much as type training, but it's still a cost that reduces profits.

I wish the company would try to get something in the IBB to prevent guys from moving to the ultra to encore, encore plus, or 400xp and only to allow you to move up to the excel or higher once you're a captain in one of those airplanes.

I'm not certain why the company would want this. Again, who would do IOE, line checks, etc. if current PIC's can't bid to the Encore+, for instance? And why would the pilot group want something like that that would limit equipment choices?

In the end, I do hope your upgrade occurs sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, if you are unwilling to wait for upgrade or if IBB doesn't produce the sort of results you desire, you are absolutely free to pursue other job opportunities.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Why don't they go to the excel. The excel also has TCAS, Honeywell FMZ, hot wing and as far as I can tell goes almost everywhere the ultra goes plus they make more money.

Some people don't want to deal with the APU, the larger bag-hauling capacity, or the fact that the Excel is a very busy fleet because it can recover not only for its own fleet, but also the Ultra, Encore, and 400XP. Even if it means turning down $300 per month.

 

[Allen1]

It's good to acknowledge that they are exercising their rights under the contract that both you and I choose to work under. As for your "right" to be pissed, I suppose that's your "decision" but it does little to change the situation.



Well, we do agree that it is their right under the contract it's their right to switch aircraft. As for you having a problem with them bidding "an improved ultra", why shouldn't they be able to do that? Getting into a new program earlier can be the path to getting into the check airman, instructor, or IOE positions. Shouldn't everyone who's qualified have a chance at those positions?

As for slowing down your income progression, can you prove that factually? With the draw down of the Ultras, there will eventually be a blind displacement bid for those still in that fleet. So at that point, they'd be able to bid for a wide range of planes, including the Encore+. If that happens while you're still waiting for upgrade, would complain that the displacement bid is slowing down your income progression?



One can only hope but time will tell.



It's part of the cost of doing business. Would you suggest that no one should ever be able to switch aircraft? Under our current contract, you'd preclude others from their own "income progression", as you termed it.

By the way, there's also a cost in terms of dollars and time lost on the line for someone who upgrades in type. It's not as much as type training, but it's still a cost that reduces profits.



I'm not certain why the company would want this. Again, who would do IOE, line checks, etc. if current PIC's can't bid to the Encore+, for instance? And why would the pilot group want something like that that would limit equipment choices?

In the end, I do hope your upgrade occurs sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, if you are unwilling to wait for upgrade or if IBB doesn't produce the sort of results you desire, you are absolutely free to pursue other job opportunities.

The argument of them being able to do IOE or line checks for extra income doesn't hold water. Most of them are senior enough to do that in all most any airplane. These are the guys in the ultra that are afraid to fly anything bigger and think they know everything about flying. Like pogos said they're a legend in their own minds.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The argument of them being able to do IOE or line checks for extra income doesn't hold water. Most of them are senior enough to do that in all most any airplane. These are the guys in the ultra that are afraid to fly anything bigger and think they know everything about flying. Like pogos said they're a legend in their own minds.

It does indeed hold water for those people doing those extra duties. For instance, one of the recent Encore+ bidders was already doing IOE in the Encore. Looks like he's planning on doing IOE again in the E+. He likes the Encore and simply wants to move into a nicer, newer version. It's his right and trust me, he isn't "afraid" to fly anything bigger nor is he "a legend in his own mind". I'd be curious to see if you would make these arguments to him in person.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Afraid to fly anything bigger than an Ultra!!

Oh that makes me laugh!! Having left the Ultra fleet over 5 years ago to switch to Hawkers I can attest to the fact that my job has been easier and less scary ever since.

Lets see... The Ultras go into all kinds of little airports never designed with jet use in mind, do it with no TCAS, do it with a crappy radar thats barely better than nothing at all...

Weird thing to say that someone wouldn't leave a class I airplane for a class II airplane (which is SO HUGE in comparison??) because they are "afraid"?

No, I would say QOL is the likely driver of such a decision and as such is a matter of seniority rights.

The good news for you is that the company needs (X) number of captains. So when the company needs new captains it doesn't matter that existing captains switch fleets. The need for new captains remains and slots keep opening until those upgrades happen.

 

[cldsfr79]

Wow - that's a lot of assumption on your part. From knowing a few of the guys that are bidding from one Class 1 airframe to another Class 1 plane, some of them simply prefer the sort of flying the non-APU fleet does. Not everyone is chasing type ratings or trying to "hide out" in training.

Look, I am flying right seat and I understand the arguement of what's going on. From first hand knowledge of the 560 fleet, I know that a lot of guys who fly that plane like it because of the mission the plane flys. Our average flight is just over an hour, with a max flight time of about 3 1/2 hours. I don't know about anybody else, but I would go nuts sitting in my seat for 5+ hours. It's fun to make all the hops, and I like going into all the small airports that our larger fleet can't touch. We have a lot of senior guys in the 560 and it is their right to enjoy what they do and bid the aircraft/mission they like to fly.
If the guy wants to have a new airplane smell, then let him have it.

Now that being said, am I fustrated with the slow upgrade times? You bet. Do I want to pull my hair out when I see PICs getting PIC bids? You bet. Is there anything I can do about it? No. I have gotten over the fustration and know that when my time comes, I'll get my bid, and when I become senior enough I might jump into the planes with the new airplane smell too. I too will most likely be the senior guy flying the smaller plane, I just like the flying the small plane does.

 

[bosdrx]

PIC gettin PIC bids... I dont completely understand. If a PIC in the Ultra takes a PIC slot in the Hawker doesnt that open up a slot in the Ultra? I think this was covered on another thread but I think I missed something...

 

[Guitar Guy]

PIC gettin PIC bids... I dont completely understand. If a PIC in the Ultra takes a PIC slot in the Hawker doesnt that open up a slot in the Ultra? I think this was covered on another thread but I think I missed something...

That's an interesting example with the Ultra because the company is starting to phase out the Ultra with 2-3 planes on the used market at a given time. So the company is slowly reducing the pilot ranks on that fleet. However, there was a bid award for PIC on the Ultra in late July. As a result of that award, 8 SIC's upgraded - there was no "type collecting" with that bid.

 

[RP170]

RP170 I interviewed on the 2nd and I am still waiting for the assignment also. I spoke to one other person who interviewed on the same date and he had the same story.

Sounds like we are all in the same situation. They told me crew planning is extremely busy with new bids, etc. I'll post when I hear something.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Afraid to fly anything bigger than an Ultra!!

Oh that makes me laugh!! Having left the Ultra fleet over 5 years ago to switch to Hawkers I can attest to the fact that my job has been easier and less scary ever since.

Lets see... The Ultras go into all kinds of little airports never designed with jet use in mind, do it with no TCAS, do it with a crappy radar thats barely better than nothing at all...

Weird thing to say that someone wouldn't leave a class I airplane for a class II airplane (which is SO HUGE in comparison??) because they are "afraid"?

No, I would say QOL is the likely driver of such a decision and as such is a matter of seniority rights.

The good news for you is that the company needs (X) number of captains. So when the company needs new captains it doesn't matter that existing captains switch fleets. The need for new captains remains and slots keep opening until those upgrades happen.

If your In the high 200# on the senority list you can't call QOL. Some people like the Mission of the Non APU airplane? yeah sitting in LAS when its 110 degrees outside is sure Fun! or Aspen or Green Bay in January when its 0 degrees outside sure is fun too. Yeah the Ultra does fly into some airports that we shouldn't go into and bad radar and no TCAS all add up. So if these guys are not afraid to upgrade to a Bigger little corprate jet then most likely there to stupid to do it. As you pointed out for all the reasons you left the Ultra to go to the Hawker fleet.

I've been here for over 24 months and when I was Hired the said upgrades were running 12-24 months. I'm still over 160 numbers from upgrade so for the company to tell New hires that same info is pretty bad. but it's no big secret that we lost +60 pilots as of Jan 07 due to the slow upgrades and the Non HBA issue. The Company and IBT have to address the FO pay issue in addition to the NON HBA issue. The company knows that there is a Pilot shortage and will be fighting hard to attract and retain qualified pilots or loss them to the Majors. And don't come back and say you can leave anytime Guitar Guy. I'm saying and I think you know that we should be holding management to the fire on these issue's.