August 1/2 NJA interviews

[Guitar Guy]

Yep you're right it is their seniority right to do so. It's my right to get pissed at them for slowing my upgrade also.

It's good to acknowledge that they are exercising their rights under the contract that both you and I choose to work under. As for your "right" to be pissed, I suppose that's your "decision" but it does little to change the situation.

I don't have a problem with guys bidding from the ultra to a larger aircraft or bidding any larger aircraft for that matter. I do have a problem with them bidding from the ultra to another newer improved ultra with a different name and slowing down my income progression, but that's their right.

Well, we do agree that it is their right under the contract it's their right to switch aircraft. As for you having a problem with them bidding "an improved ultra", why shouldn't they be able to do that? Getting into a new program earlier can be the path to getting into the check airman, instructor, or IOE positions. Shouldn't everyone who's qualified have a chance at those positions?

As for slowing down your income progression, can you prove that factually? With the draw down of the Ultras, there will eventually be a blind displacement bid for those still in that fleet. So at that point, they'd be able to bid for a wide range of planes, including the Encore+. If that happens while you're still waiting for upgrade, would complain that the displacement bid is slowing down your income progression?

I hope they get enough encore pluses on property to work their a***s for 18 days every month though.

One can only hope but time will tell.

It does cost the company more money when guys keep swithcing fleets which reduces profits, and thats the truth no matter what you say.

It's part of the cost of doing business. Would you suggest that no one should ever be able to switch aircraft? Under our current contract, you'd preclude others from their own "income progression", as you termed it.

By the way, there's also a cost in terms of dollars and time lost on the line for someone who upgrades in type. It's not as much as type training, but it's still a cost that reduces profits.

I wish the company would try to get something in the IBB to prevent guys from moving to the ultra to encore, encore plus, or 400xp and only to allow you to move up to the excel or higher once you're a captain in one of those airplanes.

I'm not certain why the company would want this. Again, who would do IOE, line checks, etc. if current PIC's can't bid to the Encore+, for instance? And why would the pilot group want something like that that would limit equipment choices?

In the end, I do hope your upgrade occurs sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, if you are unwilling to wait for upgrade or if IBB doesn't produce the sort of results you desire, you are absolutely free to pursue other job opportunities.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Why don't they go to the excel. The excel also has TCAS, Honeywell FMZ, hot wing and as far as I can tell goes almost everywhere the ultra goes plus they make more money.

Some people don't want to deal with the APU, the larger bag-hauling capacity, or the fact that the Excel is a very busy fleet because it can recover not only for its own fleet, but also the Ultra, Encore, and 400XP. Even if it means turning down $300 per month.

 

[Allen1]

It's good to acknowledge that they are exercising their rights under the contract that both you and I choose to work under. As for your "right" to be pissed, I suppose that's your "decision" but it does little to change the situation.



Well, we do agree that it is their right under the contract it's their right to switch aircraft. As for you having a problem with them bidding "an improved ultra", why shouldn't they be able to do that? Getting into a new program earlier can be the path to getting into the check airman, instructor, or IOE positions. Shouldn't everyone who's qualified have a chance at those positions?

As for slowing down your income progression, can you prove that factually? With the draw down of the Ultras, there will eventually be a blind displacement bid for those still in that fleet. So at that point, they'd be able to bid for a wide range of planes, including the Encore+. If that happens while you're still waiting for upgrade, would complain that the displacement bid is slowing down your income progression?



One can only hope but time will tell.



It's part of the cost of doing business. Would you suggest that no one should ever be able to switch aircraft? Under our current contract, you'd preclude others from their own "income progression", as you termed it.

By the way, there's also a cost in terms of dollars and time lost on the line for someone who upgrades in type. It's not as much as type training, but it's still a cost that reduces profits.



I'm not certain why the company would want this. Again, who would do IOE, line checks, etc. if current PIC's can't bid to the Encore+, for instance? And why would the pilot group want something like that that would limit equipment choices?

In the end, I do hope your upgrade occurs sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, if you are unwilling to wait for upgrade or if IBB doesn't produce the sort of results you desire, you are absolutely free to pursue other job opportunities.

The argument of them being able to do IOE or line checks for extra income doesn't hold water. Most of them are senior enough to do that in all most any airplane. These are the guys in the ultra that are afraid to fly anything bigger and think they know everything about flying. Like pogos said they're a legend in their own minds.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The argument of them being able to do IOE or line checks for extra income doesn't hold water. Most of them are senior enough to do that in all most any airplane. These are the guys in the ultra that are afraid to fly anything bigger and think they know everything about flying. Like pogos said they're a legend in their own minds.

It does indeed hold water for those people doing those extra duties. For instance, one of the recent Encore+ bidders was already doing IOE in the Encore. Looks like he's planning on doing IOE again in the E+. He likes the Encore and simply wants to move into a nicer, newer version. It's his right and trust me, he isn't "afraid" to fly anything bigger nor is he "a legend in his own mind". I'd be curious to see if you would make these arguments to him in person.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Afraid to fly anything bigger than an Ultra!!

Oh that makes me laugh!! Having left the Ultra fleet over 5 years ago to switch to Hawkers I can attest to the fact that my job has been easier and less scary ever since.

Lets see... The Ultras go into all kinds of little airports never designed with jet use in mind, do it with no TCAS, do it with a crappy radar thats barely better than nothing at all...

Weird thing to say that someone wouldn't leave a class I airplane for a class II airplane (which is SO HUGE in comparison??) because they are "afraid"?

No, I would say QOL is the likely driver of such a decision and as such is a matter of seniority rights.

The good news for you is that the company needs (X) number of captains. So when the company needs new captains it doesn't matter that existing captains switch fleets. The need for new captains remains and slots keep opening until those upgrades happen.

 

[cldsfr79]

Wow - that's a lot of assumption on your part. From knowing a few of the guys that are bidding from one Class 1 airframe to another Class 1 plane, some of them simply prefer the sort of flying the non-APU fleet does. Not everyone is chasing type ratings or trying to "hide out" in training.

Look, I am flying right seat and I understand the arguement of what's going on. From first hand knowledge of the 560 fleet, I know that a lot of guys who fly that plane like it because of the mission the plane flys. Our average flight is just over an hour, with a max flight time of about 3 1/2 hours. I don't know about anybody else, but I would go nuts sitting in my seat for 5+ hours. It's fun to make all the hops, and I like going into all the small airports that our larger fleet can't touch. We have a lot of senior guys in the 560 and it is their right to enjoy what they do and bid the aircraft/mission they like to fly.
If the guy wants to have a new airplane smell, then let him have it.

Now that being said, am I fustrated with the slow upgrade times? You bet. Do I want to pull my hair out when I see PICs getting PIC bids? You bet. Is there anything I can do about it? No. I have gotten over the fustration and know that when my time comes, I'll get my bid, and when I become senior enough I might jump into the planes with the new airplane smell too. I too will most likely be the senior guy flying the smaller plane, I just like the flying the small plane does.

 

[bosdrx]

PIC gettin PIC bids... I dont completely understand. If a PIC in the Ultra takes a PIC slot in the Hawker doesnt that open up a slot in the Ultra? I think this was covered on another thread but I think I missed something...

 

[Guitar Guy]

PIC gettin PIC bids... I dont completely understand. If a PIC in the Ultra takes a PIC slot in the Hawker doesnt that open up a slot in the Ultra? I think this was covered on another thread but I think I missed something...

That's an interesting example with the Ultra because the company is starting to phase out the Ultra with 2-3 planes on the used market at a given time. So the company is slowly reducing the pilot ranks on that fleet. However, there was a bid award for PIC on the Ultra in late July. As a result of that award, 8 SIC's upgraded - there was no "type collecting" with that bid.

 

[RP170]

RP170 I interviewed on the 2nd and I am still waiting for the assignment also. I spoke to one other person who interviewed on the same date and he had the same story.

Sounds like we are all in the same situation. They told me crew planning is extremely busy with new bids, etc. I'll post when I hear something.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Afraid to fly anything bigger than an Ultra!!

Oh that makes me laugh!! Having left the Ultra fleet over 5 years ago to switch to Hawkers I can attest to the fact that my job has been easier and less scary ever since.

Lets see... The Ultras go into all kinds of little airports never designed with jet use in mind, do it with no TCAS, do it with a crappy radar thats barely better than nothing at all...

Weird thing to say that someone wouldn't leave a class I airplane for a class II airplane (which is SO HUGE in comparison??) because they are "afraid"?

No, I would say QOL is the likely driver of such a decision and as such is a matter of seniority rights.

The good news for you is that the company needs (X) number of captains. So when the company needs new captains it doesn't matter that existing captains switch fleets. The need for new captains remains and slots keep opening until those upgrades happen.

If your In the high 200# on the senority list you can't call QOL. Some people like the Mission of the Non APU airplane? yeah sitting in LAS when its 110 degrees outside is sure Fun! or Aspen or Green Bay in January when its 0 degrees outside sure is fun too. Yeah the Ultra does fly into some airports that we shouldn't go into and bad radar and no TCAS all add up. So if these guys are not afraid to upgrade to a Bigger little corprate jet then most likely there to stupid to do it. As you pointed out for all the reasons you left the Ultra to go to the Hawker fleet.

I've been here for over 24 months and when I was Hired the said upgrades were running 12-24 months. I'm still over 160 numbers from upgrade so for the company to tell New hires that same info is pretty bad. but it's no big secret that we lost +60 pilots as of Jan 07 due to the slow upgrades and the Non HBA issue. The Company and IBT have to address the FO pay issue in addition to the NON HBA issue. The company knows that there is a Pilot shortage and will be fighting hard to attract and retain qualified pilots or loss them to the Majors. And don't come back and say you can leave anytime Guitar Guy. I'm saying and I think you know that we should be holding management to the fire on these issue's.