Attn Delta Pilots-

[motch]

Since CAL Management has been kind enough to compare us to you~
Could you please answer a few questions.

1) Do you separate BES's on all types of aircraft/bases?
At CAL, a pilot trained and typed on the 757/767 flies the following=
757-200, 757-300, 767-200, 767-400. On top of this, he flies both International and Domestic trips.
What does Delta do?

2) When crewing International trips, do you do it with 1 Captain and 2 FO's on a flight requiring 3 crewmembers? And where do you draw the line for 3 required crewmembers?
At CAL, a trip with 7:30 going over and 8:30 coming back would have a DEADHEADING pilot going over, and he would be working coming back. Oh, and Business First crewrest/deadhead seat is not guaranteed

3) On triple 7 flights over 12 hours, how do you crew them? 2 Captains and 2 FO's? or 1 Captain and 3 FO's?
Also, do you require the crew to come in the day prior for rest?

4) On you 737 flying, what is the min days off, max days off and average days off for line holders?
And.. If/When you require a 3rd pilot, do you add a FO or do you add a full deadhead crew? Remember talking to a Delta crew somewhere and thought they said that on some of the Latin/Crab flights that were over 8 hours, they deadheaded a Captain/FO to work the flight back.

5) on Average, how many crossing do the International crews do a month, and what is their credit hours for that month. Again, was told that Delta crews average 4-5 crossing a month with over 75 hours credit.

6) Do you do training on days off? At CAL, a lineholder who would have 14 days off will lose 2 days if he had to do his sim ride, or one day for groundschool...

7) How is vacation handled concerning PBS?

8) Besides the HUGH hole concerning the 70-76 seaters.. what are the problems in your contract?

Thanks in advance
Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Since CAL Management has been kind enough to compare us to you~
Could you please answer a few questions.

1) Do you separate BES's on all types of aircraft/bases?
At CAL, a pilot trained and typed on the 757/767 flies the following=
757-200, 757-300, 767-200, 767-400. On top of this, he flies both International and Domestic trips.
What does Delta do?

There are three separate categories: 767 domestic, 767ER international and, 767-400. Domestic 767 stays in North and Central America. 7ER flies EVERYWHERE. Both categories fly the 757-200, 200ER, 300, 767-300, 300ER. The 767-400 is a separate category all by itself.

2) When crewing International trips, do you do it with 1 Captain and 2 FO's on a flight requiring 3 crewmembers? And where do you draw the line for 3 required crewmembers?

As long as at least ONE leg is over eight hours the trip is crewed with one CA and two FOs for BOTH legs. Business rest seat is guaranteed.

3) On triple 7 flights over 12 hours, how do you crew them? 2 Captains and 2 FO's? or 1 Captain and 3 FO's?

2 CA's and 2 FO's for all flights over 12 hours even on the 767.

Also, do you require the crew to come in the day prior for rest?

No

4) On you 737 flying, what is the min days off, max days off and average days off for line holders?
And.. If/When you require a 3rd pilot, do you add a FO or do you add a full deadhead crew? Remember talking to a Delta crew somewhere and thought they said that on some of the Latin/Crab flights that were over 8 hours, they deadheaded a Captain/FO to work the flight back.

I don't fly the 737 or -88 so I don't know how their lines are. I assume it is like the domestic 767 lines with about 16-17 days off. ALV right now is ranging between 72-82 hours depending on the month.

5) on Average, how many crossing do the International crews do a month, and what is their credit hours for that month. Again, was told that Delta crews average 4-5 crossing a month with over 75 hours credit.

That so depends on how senior you are. If you have nothing but DUB all month expect to do five or six. If you have TLV, then maybe only three. Our 767 does a lot of long legs. Before they added a butt-load of domestic flying to the NYC category last November I was flying four to five trips of either FRA, TXL, AMS, BRU, ZHR, MXP, etc.

6) Do you do training on days off? At CAL, a lineholder who would have 14 days off will lose 2 days if he had to do his sim ride, or one day for groundschool...

Your line is built with training as a part of it. IOW, training is considered a trip.

7) How is vacation handled concerning PBS?

No different than anywhere else I suppose. If you have a week of vacation then PBS blocks that week off. Then, it uses the credit time to build your line from there.

I have two weeks of vacation next month but, I am on reserve. So, I requested as many days off around it as possible. I ended up with the first twenty days off and the last ten on reserve which is what I wanted.

8) Besides the HUGH hole concerning the 70-76 seaters.. what are the problems in your contract?

Section 23k.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I believe that there is a copy of the PWA on another forum. The one that posts pay scales.

23K---bad
70-76 seat flying---not so hot
vacation-lost a week in 1113C
sick time---not what it used to be
reserve---seniority is for the most part not accounted for. Good if junior not so good if senior.
Cannot pick up trip 24 hrs out on reserve
We sign in for trips, we not not notify like you do.

I think that PLUG has or will have a copy of the PWA shortly!

 

[mamba20]

God this is just depressing to read. Thanks again ALPA and the class of '83.

 

[General Lee]

DL INTL reserve is not good. (according to my friends on it) For the INTL (or ER guys) pilots, there are 6 short calls per month, but they are 24 hours long, so DL can say you will start at noon one day, until noon the next. (so six of those can equal 12 days away if commuting) The Domestic pilots also have 6 short calls, but they have 12 hours, not 24. The funny thing is, most of the ER or INTL trips are now domestic only trips, yet DALPA still allows the company to give those guys 24 hour on call periods. It should be like this: if 50% of the trips in the category are INTL only trips, then 50% of the reserves must be on 24 hour call outs, and then allow the other 50% to have 12 hour leashes. But hey, Dalpa let them have it any way they wanted it. (although it used to be 8 of those a month, hence newhires going to the 767 in NYC because nobody else wanted it) Thank gawd I don't have to do that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[motch]

Thanks guys..
I've always thought that the Delta CBA (PWA!) was ten times better than what we have here at CAL.
It's obvious now, I (and others) only heard the positives and not the negatives.

It does seem that under your PWA, CAL would require two new BES's (a 767-400 BES and a Domestic/International 756 BES) on top of what we have now
Also, it would require more Captains on the Triple 7 and on the 767-400, though.. not sure how ofter we fly that over 12 hours. Not to mention more FO's for the international flying.

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots.

I'm still impressed that at Delta, there have been no furloughs?!

 

[motch]

Capt C-
You mentioned 5 or 6 Dublins... at CAL, that would be 6 Dublins in one month since they are worth 14:10 each and 5 would be below line value.
6 DUB would be 85: 00 for the month, 12 (or 13) days off, no IRO.
If you got 5 DUB, you could expect something as an IRO working only on the way back, an OSL (Oslo) or UK trip. They could even give you a domestic 2 day.

What would happen at Delta?

Thanks
motch

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

 

[michael707767]

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots.

I'm still impressed that at Delta, there have been no furloughs?!

Are you kidding me? The few added pilots will not even come close to offsetting the loss of jobs if you give up scope.

Yes, I am very impressed also that we have not furloughed. And I think we are over the hump now. I don't see furloughs happening. Unless we give up more scope.

 

[nimtz]

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots.

Have you done a pee test lately?!? You are junior to me so at least you'll get thrown out on the street before me if this mentality adds up to 51%!

 

[nwaf16dude]

Not sure if this has been said, but the Domestic only 767 categories at Delta are slowly disappearing.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

Have you done a pee test lately?!? You are junior to me so at least you'll get thrown out on the street before me if this mentality adds up to 51%!

No kidding. Heaven forbid we actually sign a contract that requires some growth......

 

[Noserider76]

The PWA DL has now was signed in BK with a management shotgun lodged firmly below DALPA's chin. It includes huge paycuts (30+%) and other heinous workrule concessions and scope atrocities when compared with our previous contract. We'll be looking at some serious corrections to that in the next couple years. Do you want to lock yourself into a POS or help the profession regain some of the ground lost over the last 10 years?

 

[bizicmo]

Thanks guys..

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots.

I would rather see best regional 70 seat pay plus $1 then give those away. Maybe because i'm on furlough I'm thinking this way but at least once there on property rates can change on them in the future.

 

[motch]

Are you kidding me? The few added pilots will not even come close to offsetting the loss of jobs if you give up scope.

Yes, I am very impressed also that we have not furloughed. And I think we are over the hump now. I don't see furloughs happening. Unless we give up more scope.

Again.. I do not want nor expect to give up scope (aircraft size).

Can you explain to me how you (Delta) gave up scope and have not furloughed one mainline pilot?

Obviously, what Delta MEC did was different than what United MEC did when it comes to scope relief AND pilot protection.

Also, can someone explain to me WHY Delta pilots and ALPA National allowed the scope relaxation to happen at Delta?

motch

 

[hockeypilot44]

Again.. I do not want nor expect to give up scope (aircraft size).

Can you explain to me how you (Delta) gave up scope and have not furloughed one mainline pilot?

Obviously, what Delta MEC did was different than what United MEC did when it comes to scope relief AND pilot protection.

Also, can someone explain to me WHY Delta pilots and ALPA National allowed the scope relaxation to happen at Delta?

motch

Delta furloughed pilots post 9/11 when the regionals were growing massively. In 2007, Delta had the largest international growth in its history. The Combined Delta/Northwest is barely larger than Delta was at one point as a stand-alone. Delta management has not furloughed because of the merger. They are trying to make the merger go as smooth as possible and keep the pilots on board. Furloughing would make pilots like myself (28 years old) hate the company for the next 30+ years. It doesn't hurt that Richard Anderson is actually trying to run Delta while Glen Tilton is just trying to make himself as much money as possible with no regard to his airline. CAL obviously doesn't mind furloughing or it wouldn't have fulroughed 148. If you guys get Delta scope, expect CAL to furlough thousands. The Delta contract is not that great. American's contract is better and the APA is willing to go on strike over it (not that anyone would ever let them). Please do us all a favor and do not settle for the Delta contract. There are many loopholes that cost me hundreds of dollars/month.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Again.. I do not want nor expect to give up scope (aircraft size).

Can you explain to me how you (Delta) gave up scope and have not furloughed one mainline pilot?

Obviously, what Delta MEC did was different than what United MEC did when it comes to scope relief AND pilot protection.

Also, can someone explain to me WHY Delta pilots and ALPA National allowed the scope relaxation to happen at Delta?

motch

Yes,
First no scope has been given up since 1113C. The 76 seat scope settlement put in place procedures to remove seats of the 76 seat jets that were above our interpretation of the wording if any pilots hired after Sept 2001 were furloughed. A slightly different protection was in place that took a lot of those 76 seat jets and made them 70 seat jets if any Sept 2001 and earlier hires were furloughed. That alone is a huge financial inventive.
Add to the fact that we owned every seat at Compass since no pilot has bypassed the flow provision as no one has flowed. That meant that every seat was available to flow down. Add the Mesaba seats that we had rights to and you were looking at the airline paying training costs for these flows as they were wholly owned carriers.
What this amounts to is multiple levels in place that put the break even on a furlough over 22 months.
When they made the decision to furlough or not to furlough this time last year pilots were in the wrong seats and righting the airline would have take way to long for a ROI on a furlough.

Adding more 76 seat jets or allowing 100 seat jets will most certainly change that, and in effect is off the table.

You want that flying which you have been able to hold to stay at CAL. Fly it for market rates but do not give it away. CAL has been more profitable that DAL and you have kept the flying. Selling the flying is a one way street and never forget it. Keep it at all costs.

The reason that you guys furloughed 147 pilots and were able to run the airline is wrapped in to the way you construct your lines and the hours per month the average pilot flies.

 

[Superpilot92]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What HE said!!!!

 

[dtfl]

Your line is built with training as a part of it. IOW, training is considered a trip.

Your line is built and training is paid 3 hours per day but you get no credit for training. So they build the line and you get paid for tng but it isn't added to your line value

 

[thruthemurk]

....

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots....QUOTE]

How many more guys think like this at CAL? Are pilots really this dense?

God help us.

 

[aa73]

Here, I'll save SFR the trouble: Hey, I've only worked 5 days this month! Gives me a lot more time off to invest in my primo Houston luxury trailer parks business. So if you don't like CAL and our awesome work rules, why don't you quit?

 

[Shrek]

Delta furloughed pilots post 9/11 when the regionals were growing massively. In 2007, Delta had the largest international growth in its history. The Combined Delta/Northwest is barely larger than Delta was at one point as a stand-alone. Delta management has not furloughed because of the merger. They are trying to make the merger go as smooth as possible and keep the pilots on board. Furloughing would make pilots like myself (28 years old) hate the company for the next 30+ years. It doesn't hurt that Richard Anderson is actually trying to run Delta while Glen Tilton is just trying to make himself as much money as possible with no regard to his airline. CAL obviously doesn't mind furloughing or it wouldn't have fulroughed 148. If you guys get Delta scope, expect CAL to furlough thousands. The Delta contract is not that great. American's contract is better and the APA is willing to go on strike over it (not that anyone would ever let them). Please do us all a favor and do not settle for the Delta contract. There are many loopholes that cost me hundreds of dollars/month.

Says it all right there.........

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Your line is built and training is paid 3 hours per day but you get no credit for training. So they build the line and you get paid for tng but it isn't added to your line value

Correct but, training pay is taken into account when building up to ALV. That is what I was referring to. For example, this month I had recurrent. My line value was 61 which is below the lowest threshold for the ALV of 72. So, the 6 hours of training brought me up to 67 (still too low for me this month, still trying to do some trading).

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Delta furloughed pilots post 9/11 when the regionals were growing massively. In 2007, Delta had the largest international growth in its history. The Combined Delta/Northwest is barely larger than Delta was at one point as a stand-alone. Delta management has not furloughed because of the merger. They are trying to make the merger go as smooth as possible and keep the pilots on board. Furloughing would make pilots like myself (28 years old) hate the company for the next 30+ years. It doesn't hurt that Richard Anderson is actually trying to run Delta while Glen Tilton is just trying to make himself as much money as possible with no regard to his airline. CAL obviously doesn't mind furloughing or it wouldn't have fulroughed 148. If you guys get Delta scope, expect CAL to furlough thousands. The Delta contract is not that great. American's contract is better and the APA is willing to go on strike over it (not that anyone would ever let them). Please do us all a favor and do not settle for the Delta contract. There are many loopholes that cost me hundreds of dollars/month.

Delta has no problem furloughing, they just currently happen to be doing it at thier subsidiaries.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

....

Either way, the added pilots would negate the loss of pilots on the 737's IF the company replaced them with 70-76 seat RJ's flown by Regional Carrier pilots....QUOTE]

How many more guys think like this at CAL? Are pilots really this dense?

God help us.

You guys need to lay off Motch. He's a dedicated unionist and I believe was an MEC member at his previous carrier. First let me say that any relaxation of scope to allow larger than 50 seat jets to be outsourced at CAL is not only no, but F NO from me. HOWEVER, there is truth to what Motch said. Parking the 737-500 fleet (I believe we have 32 left) would result in about 350 less pilot positions. At the same time, our current lack of work rules is so horrendous that we will require 448 more pilots to operate under DAL's contract per the Aug. 2009 Crews News. So, if somehow DAL scope ever became the rule here at CAL (I bet it won't) even after parking 32 737s we would require 100 more pilots on the property than we have now, recalling at least 2/3 of our furloughs. Of course if Mgt then decides why not also replace the -700s with E-170s, maybe some -800s and increase frequency, well you get the picture. That is why on Scope alone DAL's contract is a non starter here, not to mention bankruptcy pay rates agreed to when oil was over $140 a barrel.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Delta has no problem furloughing, they just currently happen to be doing it at thier subsidiaries.

DAL understands they have way too many RJ's. You're seeing the after effects of the RJ bubble.

If mainline furloughed, the subsidiaries would be furloughing even more, you do understand that, right?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

DAL understands they have way too many RJ's. You're seeing the after effects of the RJ bubble.

If mainline furloughed, the subsidiaries would be furloughing even more, you do understand that, right?

I do understand that.

Yet not one of our RJ's is going away, just every turboprop... We all figured they'd go but at least NWA would have likely replaced them with the Dash or ATR. Also if there is such a glut of rj's why hasn't Delta cancelled the Mesa flying that they could have with Mesa's bankruptcy? Seems to me that would be a perfect way to cut rj's

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You are a WO correct?

That is why. They will dump every RJ they can at the contract carriers then put them at the WO where there is no floor to the Air Service Agreements. They are getting burned by this. It is part of the reason OH is taking it in the shorts. Simply because DAL can do it to them with no financial penalty. The third party operators are different. I expect to see a shift after the five year resets start happening this fall.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I hope you are right... I will be downgraded in the next displacement and with my house sooo underwater I can't refinance and may well lose it with the paycut.

 

[Launchpad]

<<They are trying to make the merger go as smooth as possible and keep the pilots on board. Furloughing would make pilots like myself (28 years old) hate the company for the next 30+ years.>>

I heard this same story back in 01, holds no water. They could care less. I was 28, then got furloughed. My hatred level has gotten better, but I'll never forget.

 

[xjhawk]

I must say that I am happy that there is no bashing of regional PILOTS on this post in regards to the 76 seat scope. I am a regional pilot and do not want to be here. I would rather be at a mainline as would most of my coworkers. I want to see growth at the mainline level and leave the regionals behind-that would help all our careers. God I wish I was 28 years old and at a major. Man my timing is terrible. So much for serving my country before I made my run at the airlines. Do us all a favor-hold strong on that 76 seat scope if you can. So there is a light at the end of my long dark tunnel. What the hell is 24 hour call out for reserves? I have been on reserve for almost 7 years here at XJ and am going crazy!

PS I know what it is, I just know that I wish we had it.