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Attention Tsa Jumpseat Under Attack
- Thread starter Shrek
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<sigh> go back, read my post, notice I said "many" not "all"
I don't like that situation any more than the next guy, but I'm not gonna risk my job by refusing to fly an airplane because I don't like how it came to be at my airline. Take some comfort in the fact that they're the oldest, most worn-out, tired planes around.
If the stars align properly and TSA pilots and Eagle pilots try to find a way to resolve the situation to everyone's benefit, I'll be right there trying to help out.
I don't like that situation any more than the next guy, but I'm not gonna risk my job by refusing to fly an airplane because I don't like how it came to be at my airline. Take some comfort in the fact that they're the oldest, most worn-out, tired planes around.
If the stars align properly and TSA pilots and Eagle pilots try to find a way to resolve the situation to everyone's benefit, I'll be right there trying to help out.
Palmtree Pilot
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Kugelblitz
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Hulas truly sucks (or however you spell his sh#t name)
That is so typical of the place. I worked there 11 years ago and it was as deplorable then as it is now. The company bread a culture of backstabbing. We had management pilots firing people left and right for not passing checkrides that they couldn't pass themselves. It used to be that certain people in management gave each other recurrent checkrides.
How a company that despises its' own employees so much and can stay in business is beyond me. It may have something to do with Hulas' egalitarian status within the Hindu community.
For those of you who only know TSA, the most of the industry doesn't operate that way. TSA is the worst possible place one could ever be stuck, and you all have my sincere sympathy.
ren said:
That is so typical of the place. I worked there 11 years ago and it was as deplorable then as it is now. The company bread a culture of backstabbing. We had management pilots firing people left and right for not passing checkrides that they couldn't pass themselves. It used to be that certain people in management gave each other recurrent checkrides.
How a company that despises its' own employees so much and can stay in business is beyond me. It may have something to do with Hulas' egalitarian status within the Hindu community.
For those of you who only know TSA, the most of the industry doesn't operate that way. TSA is the worst possible place one could ever be stuck, and you all have my sincere sympathy.
great cornholio
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Reebo
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Thanks to all of you codeshare partners (UA, UAX, AA, Eagle, Connection, US EAST and US Express) who have continued to allow TSA pilots in your cockpit. The good news is the jumpseat band is over. Any TSA captains flying this weekend needing to verify can call MW to get approval. His number is in the G.O.M. Official word should be out next week. 
Lav Service
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Maybe you don't think its your fight today. Just you wait buckeroo. I sincerely wish the best for your company, however, if they need cash bad enough.....well, you'll see what happens. NW didn't care either, now they're in a battle to save their flying from "Newco." The model was at ************************* first. Of course should this happen to you, AA, I'll simply respond "It is not OUR problem to fix, why don't you handle the problem." I'd say that would be appropriate. Pharisee.
Mr Biggelsworth
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pilotbrain
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Is everyone as sick of this topic as I am?
this is how to get over brain surgery..
Getting over brain surgery
A Chat with Diane Roberts Stoler, author of Coping with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury, January 23, 2000
See http://www.drdiane.com, or write to [email protected]
Dr. Stoler: Thank you for inviting me here today. I had a cavernous hemangioma that was oozing for ten years. There were symptoms that the doctors ignored. In March 1990 it bled enough to cause me to pass out while driving. I had a 60-mile-an-hour head-on auto accident, causing MORE brain injury, and five months later had brain surgery. They removed the growth and now I have a hole in my brain. I have joined the discussion group and can come to visit, or you can visit me at [email protected]
Chatter: How was your recovery?
Dr. Stoler: Well, it’s been ten years. The first reaction, which is not uncommon, is that the doctors do not tell you anything. I had fluent speech before the brain surgery, and stuttered after. I thought I had a zillion little worms crawling across my scalp after the surgery, and no one told me that that was not uncommon. My speech is now fluent, though I still have word-finding problems.
Chatter: Did you have headaches before and after? A lot of the people I’m in touch with still have headaches after surgery.
Dr. Stoler: I never had headaches before this happened, except when I had a high fever. I had no sign that this was going on, other than lassitude. After the brain surgery I had three distinct types of headaches:
Dr. Stoler: Yes, I had various types of memory loss. There’s retrograde (loss of memory before the accident), then after the surgery, then short-term memory loss, and finally what I call "swiss cheese" memory loss.
Dr. Stoler: I did, but no longer, thanks to a wonderful man, Dr. Igor Burdenko of Lexington, Massachusetts (http://www.burdenko.com). If you have balance problems, or motion problems, balance or gait, Dr. Budenko has revolutionized water and land therapy. I credit him for my ability to ride a bike again, to dance, to stand on one foot, and to walk normally rather than like a drunken sailor. I used to stagger and fall down and then I couldn’t get up. Now I ride my bike and do hikes.
Chatter: Did you have these symptoms right after the brain surgery?
Dr. Stoler: Yes, I had them for four years! Then the physiatrist (MD rehab doctor) said to me, "Lady, you are probably brain damaged and you are probably not going to get better. You need to go to a psychotherapist and learn how to cope with your brain damage." By luck or fate I met a woman at my local film club who told me about Dr. Budenko. She assured me he would help me. He’s the one who helped skaters Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul.
Chatter: How?
Dr. Stoler: You go to the doctor and request physical therapy/water therapy. It is covered under most health insurance. I recommend it to all my patients.
Chatter: You ride a bike without nausea? I never got my balance back after surgery.
Dr. Stoler: Yes, without nausea. Try water therapy. I do not go on roller-coasters or certain rides, and at the Omni theater there are certain effects that will cause me to get nauseous,
Another suggestion for nausea is ginger tea. Take fresh ginger root. Do not peel it. Slice it in thin slices and boil it up with a pinch of salt, then strain it and drink it with a teaspoon of honey. This will help the nausea. Do this whenever you are feeling the symptoms. At a sushi bar you can get sliced ginger, or you can get ginger candy, but with memory problems you don’t want to do sugar.
For memory problems, you want to eliminate all sugar from your diet except those from fruits. And that includes things that convert to sugar in the body like rice, potatoes, pasta, corn, all the heavy carbohydrates.
Chatter: Sugar causes memory loss?
Dr. Stoler: It doesn’t cause it, but it interferes with the synaptic connections in your brain. When someone is having severe memory problems I put them on a low-sugar diet. Fruits are okay, nuts, soybeans, vegetables, all kinds of protein, but get those sugars out of there. Try it for two weeks, and if you don’t notice a difference go back to your regular diet. It’s not good for two reasons: it interferes with the synaptic connection, and it lowers the seratonin. You need that seratonin to make the connection. Depression and anxiety also lower the seratonin. That’s why you remember better when you are relaxed.
The synaptic connections are enhanced by neuro-peptides from proteins, amino acids, protein. Soy powder, amino acid powder will help. Bluegreen algae is a high concentration of amino acids.
For breakfast I may have a high protein amino acid drink in orange juice. That’s a good breakfast: fruit, protein. You could have steak, chicken, eggs, tofu, nuts, fruit.
Chatter: I’ll have to try it, although two weeks without sugar will be tough for me.
Dr. Stoler: Yes, but if you feel better it will be worth it. You should keep a log, and ask a family member or friend to keep a log too. As with a drunk driver who doesn’t think they are weaving all over the road, someone else may have a different perception. This way you can see if it makes a difference.
Chatter: But with a high protein diet, isn’t that dangerous for your kidneys? I also have kidney tumors.
Joyce Graff: Not dangerous, but research has shown that people with partial nephrectomies do better when they lower the amount of protein, especially from animal sources, in their diets. Not eliminating it, just reducing it, because animal protein is harder for the kidney to process and therefore puts more strain on an injured kidney. Protein from vegetable sources is easier on the kidney, and it sounds like it’s the relative amounts of sugar and protein that is the goal here.
Dr. Stoler: That’s right. You can have more veggies and legumes, just reduce the refined sugars and carbs. As a chocoholic, I can tell you that a few Ghirardelli double-chocolate chocolate chips give you a quick chocolate fix with very little sugar or fat.
A very good source that you will love is roasted soybeans. I get them from Wild Harvest or Market Basket. They taste like peanuts, are yummy, and are a good source of protein, fiber, and estrogen.
I have a question for all of you. How’s the sex life? Or fatigue?
Chatter: I’m exhausted all the time, but then I have a lot on my plate. A recent death in the family, a sick parent, not to mention my brain surgery.
Dr. Stoler: I have a suggestion for you. If you’re a religious person, make time each day for prayer. Prayer heals. If you are not religious, make time each day for some relaxing activity: meditation, soothing music, a nice bath. But DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL. It only makes your brain function worse.
Homeopathics can help exhaustion and fatigue, and also neuro biofeedback. This is good for organization, fatigue, exhaustion and memory problems. Some of the practitioners are:
this is how to get over brain surgery..
Getting over brain surgery
A Chat with Diane Roberts Stoler, author of Coping with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury, January 23, 2000
See http://www.drdiane.com, or write to [email protected]
Dr. Stoler: Thank you for inviting me here today. I had a cavernous hemangioma that was oozing for ten years. There were symptoms that the doctors ignored. In March 1990 it bled enough to cause me to pass out while driving. I had a 60-mile-an-hour head-on auto accident, causing MORE brain injury, and five months later had brain surgery. They removed the growth and now I have a hole in my brain. I have joined the discussion group and can come to visit, or you can visit me at [email protected]
Chatter: How was your recovery?
Dr. Stoler: Well, it’s been ten years. The first reaction, which is not uncommon, is that the doctors do not tell you anything. I had fluent speech before the brain surgery, and stuttered after. I thought I had a zillion little worms crawling across my scalp after the surgery, and no one told me that that was not uncommon. My speech is now fluent, though I still have word-finding problems.
Chatter: Did you have headaches before and after? A lot of the people I’m in touch with still have headaches after surgery.
Dr. Stoler: I never had headaches before this happened, except when I had a high fever. I had no sign that this was going on, other than lassitude. After the brain surgery I had three distinct types of headaches:
- One was the icepick headache, one that feels like someone is taking a hot metal poker and shoving it into your brain. It’s a very localized headache.
- The second was the pressure headache from the brain surgery where you just feel general pressure.
- And the last was the "headached that’s not a headache" – atypical migraines with blurred vision, slurred speech, and weakness on one side of the body. You do get an aura before it, but there’s no real headache. For four years it was diagnosed as "sensory motor seizures." These are usually caused by brain surgery (opening the skull) or whiplash (closed skull injury).
Dr. Stoler: Yes, I had various types of memory loss. There’s retrograde (loss of memory before the accident), then after the surgery, then short-term memory loss, and finally what I call "swiss cheese" memory loss.
- Retrograde. I do not remember the accident. I passed out two miles before the accident. I remember getting woozy, but nothing after that. We think of memory only as cognitive memory, but our cells and muscles also remember. That’s called muscular or body or cell memory. I have no cognitive memory of the accident. I am a health psychologist, a consultant in clinical hypnosis, and I did age regression to see if I could remember anything about the accident. I have only little snippets of cognitive memory about the accident. However I had a mild fascial release from muscular pain, and from that release I had flash-backs from the accident. But what I still have somewhere is sensory memory. So when I hear sounds like a car crashing, my body reacts.
- Events in the past that I can only remember portions of, that’s the swiss cheese effect. I can’t remember all of it, and no clues help me. For example, my husband says we were at a party. I can remember being there, but I can’t remember what happened, no matter how many clues he gives me.
- Then there’s the short-term memory. A higher-protein diet can help memory loss.
Dr. Stoler: I did, but no longer, thanks to a wonderful man, Dr. Igor Burdenko of Lexington, Massachusetts (http://www.burdenko.com). If you have balance problems, or motion problems, balance or gait, Dr. Budenko has revolutionized water and land therapy. I credit him for my ability to ride a bike again, to dance, to stand on one foot, and to walk normally rather than like a drunken sailor. I used to stagger and fall down and then I couldn’t get up. Now I ride my bike and do hikes.
Chatter: Did you have these symptoms right after the brain surgery?
Dr. Stoler: Yes, I had them for four years! Then the physiatrist (MD rehab doctor) said to me, "Lady, you are probably brain damaged and you are probably not going to get better. You need to go to a psychotherapist and learn how to cope with your brain damage." By luck or fate I met a woman at my local film club who told me about Dr. Budenko. She assured me he would help me. He’s the one who helped skaters Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul.
Chatter: How?
Dr. Stoler: You go to the doctor and request physical therapy/water therapy. It is covered under most health insurance. I recommend it to all my patients.
Chatter: You ride a bike without nausea? I never got my balance back after surgery.
Dr. Stoler: Yes, without nausea. Try water therapy. I do not go on roller-coasters or certain rides, and at the Omni theater there are certain effects that will cause me to get nauseous,
Another suggestion for nausea is ginger tea. Take fresh ginger root. Do not peel it. Slice it in thin slices and boil it up with a pinch of salt, then strain it and drink it with a teaspoon of honey. This will help the nausea. Do this whenever you are feeling the symptoms. At a sushi bar you can get sliced ginger, or you can get ginger candy, but with memory problems you don’t want to do sugar.
For memory problems, you want to eliminate all sugar from your diet except those from fruits. And that includes things that convert to sugar in the body like rice, potatoes, pasta, corn, all the heavy carbohydrates.
Chatter: Sugar causes memory loss?
Dr. Stoler: It doesn’t cause it, but it interferes with the synaptic connections in your brain. When someone is having severe memory problems I put them on a low-sugar diet. Fruits are okay, nuts, soybeans, vegetables, all kinds of protein, but get those sugars out of there. Try it for two weeks, and if you don’t notice a difference go back to your regular diet. It’s not good for two reasons: it interferes with the synaptic connection, and it lowers the seratonin. You need that seratonin to make the connection. Depression and anxiety also lower the seratonin. That’s why you remember better when you are relaxed.
The synaptic connections are enhanced by neuro-peptides from proteins, amino acids, protein. Soy powder, amino acid powder will help. Bluegreen algae is a high concentration of amino acids.
For breakfast I may have a high protein amino acid drink in orange juice. That’s a good breakfast: fruit, protein. You could have steak, chicken, eggs, tofu, nuts, fruit.
Chatter: I’ll have to try it, although two weeks without sugar will be tough for me.
Dr. Stoler: Yes, but if you feel better it will be worth it. You should keep a log, and ask a family member or friend to keep a log too. As with a drunk driver who doesn’t think they are weaving all over the road, someone else may have a different perception. This way you can see if it makes a difference.
Chatter: But with a high protein diet, isn’t that dangerous for your kidneys? I also have kidney tumors.
Joyce Graff: Not dangerous, but research has shown that people with partial nephrectomies do better when they lower the amount of protein, especially from animal sources, in their diets. Not eliminating it, just reducing it, because animal protein is harder for the kidney to process and therefore puts more strain on an injured kidney. Protein from vegetable sources is easier on the kidney, and it sounds like it’s the relative amounts of sugar and protein that is the goal here.
Dr. Stoler: That’s right. You can have more veggies and legumes, just reduce the refined sugars and carbs. As a chocoholic, I can tell you that a few Ghirardelli double-chocolate chocolate chips give you a quick chocolate fix with very little sugar or fat.
A very good source that you will love is roasted soybeans. I get them from Wild Harvest or Market Basket. They taste like peanuts, are yummy, and are a good source of protein, fiber, and estrogen.
I have a question for all of you. How’s the sex life? Or fatigue?
Chatter: I’m exhausted all the time, but then I have a lot on my plate. A recent death in the family, a sick parent, not to mention my brain surgery.
Dr. Stoler: I have a suggestion for you. If you’re a religious person, make time each day for prayer. Prayer heals. If you are not religious, make time each day for some relaxing activity: meditation, soothing music, a nice bath. But DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL. It only makes your brain function worse.
Homeopathics can help exhaustion and fatigue, and also neuro biofeedback. This is good for organization, fatigue, exhaustion and memory problems. Some of the practitioners are:
- Janet Blum, 1-800-554-6612
- Neuro Therapy Associates of New England, Natick, Massachusetts, 1-508-655-8331
- Association of Applied Psychophysiologists and Biofeedback, 1-800-477-8892
Is this what it's come to?
First off, for the record, I don't fly for TSA or GJ and I'm not even a commuter for that matter, I live in my base for the airline I work for so I have no stake in whether commuting pilots on any airline get to work or not. I'm posting this message (and I'm sure I'll take a lot of flak for it) because I see pilots fighting other pilots as a bad thing and no good can come of it. I've never denied anybody a JS and I will not do so except in the case of a strikebreaker. You can call GJ pilots what you want but they are not scabs. At my company the other day one of our pilots was patting himself on the back in the crew room for having denied the JS to a GJ pilot. I couldn't help but wonder if anyone really wins here. Remember that in the end the Captain doesn't own the JS the company does. Remember all the years at Delta where they couldn't take offline jumpseaters? Now it happens at TSA. If the airlines think that the JS is being used as a political tool by the unions it could be lost universally. This doesn't affect me but a lot of you commuters out there could end up paying dearly for this little p%ssing match.
I'm not wild about what's happening at GJ but it was either legal to start the alter ego carrier or it wasn't. I haven't followed this case all that closely but I would assume that at some point an arbitration panel will rule on this question. If the carrier was legally formed how can you really blame the pilots who work there? If the carrier was formed illegally (scope violation) then it will be rectified and the GJ pilots will be put into their place. In an ideal world nobody would go to work for GJ (the old "what if they had a war and nobody showed up" philosophy) until the issue was resolved but that's not realistic. As far as pilots being whores is concerned, don't get me started. We're an industry full of whores: most of us started out as whores and then we're quick to call the next guy a whore....look in the mirror. If you ever took a job in this industry working for less than someone else doing the same job at another carier (that includes everyone at TSA as well as everyone at the carrier I work for including myself as well as pilots at JB, AirTran, Frontier, Midwest, Spirit, America West, etc.) you are a whore because flying will always gravitate to the low-cost provider and be lost at the high cost provider. I don't remember the major airline pilots denying the JS to everyone at these carriers when they started even though their routes were often in competition.
Has anybody thought about where this could go if every pilot group that feels wronged starts to deny the JS to the perceived violator? I can think of a million examples of this. Where does this lead? You deny my pilots the jumpseat I deny your pilots the JS, etc., etc. Once the snowball starts down the hill it's going to be hard to stop it. I think the best thing to do here is let the grievance/arbitration process run it's course and leave the jumpseat out of it.
First off, for the record, I don't fly for TSA or GJ and I'm not even a commuter for that matter, I live in my base for the airline I work for so I have no stake in whether commuting pilots on any airline get to work or not. I'm posting this message (and I'm sure I'll take a lot of flak for it) because I see pilots fighting other pilots as a bad thing and no good can come of it. I've never denied anybody a JS and I will not do so except in the case of a strikebreaker. You can call GJ pilots what you want but they are not scabs. At my company the other day one of our pilots was patting himself on the back in the crew room for having denied the JS to a GJ pilot. I couldn't help but wonder if anyone really wins here. Remember that in the end the Captain doesn't own the JS the company does. Remember all the years at Delta where they couldn't take offline jumpseaters? Now it happens at TSA. If the airlines think that the JS is being used as a political tool by the unions it could be lost universally. This doesn't affect me but a lot of you commuters out there could end up paying dearly for this little p%ssing match.
I'm not wild about what's happening at GJ but it was either legal to start the alter ego carrier or it wasn't. I haven't followed this case all that closely but I would assume that at some point an arbitration panel will rule on this question. If the carrier was legally formed how can you really blame the pilots who work there? If the carrier was formed illegally (scope violation) then it will be rectified and the GJ pilots will be put into their place. In an ideal world nobody would go to work for GJ (the old "what if they had a war and nobody showed up" philosophy) until the issue was resolved but that's not realistic. As far as pilots being whores is concerned, don't get me started. We're an industry full of whores: most of us started out as whores and then we're quick to call the next guy a whore....look in the mirror. If you ever took a job in this industry working for less than someone else doing the same job at another carier (that includes everyone at TSA as well as everyone at the carrier I work for including myself as well as pilots at JB, AirTran, Frontier, Midwest, Spirit, America West, etc.) you are a whore because flying will always gravitate to the low-cost provider and be lost at the high cost provider. I don't remember the major airline pilots denying the JS to everyone at these carriers when they started even though their routes were often in competition.
Has anybody thought about where this could go if every pilot group that feels wronged starts to deny the JS to the perceived violator? I can think of a million examples of this. Where does this lead? You deny my pilots the jumpseat I deny your pilots the JS, etc., etc. Once the snowball starts down the hill it's going to be hard to stop it. I think the best thing to do here is let the grievance/arbitration process run it's course and leave the jumpseat out of it.
Shrek
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2005
- Posts
- 1,640
ALPA's Policy
Check out more ALPA news and information 24-7 at crewroom.alpa.org
February 17, 2006—In this issue:
During these times of airline turmoil, airlines may be tempted to place artificial restrictions -- specifically, those that do not involve safety concerns -- on using jumpseats. ALPA strongly disagrees with such restrictions and has always maintained that jumpseats should be off limits to any type of dispute that is not related to safety.
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Images/ImageView.aspx?itemid=982
ALPA's jumpseat policy, contained in Section 115 of the ALPA Administrative Manual, speaks directly to this subject: "ALPA supports the Captain's authority to exclude any person other than required crew from the flight deck if, in his opinion, that person's presence will compromise safety.
"Denial of jumpseat privileges as a means of punishing, coercing, or retaliating against other pilot groups or individuals is not supported by ALPA. The Jumpseat and/or Professional Standards Representative appointed by the respective Master Executive Council or governing body should resolve disputes that arise between pilots, airlines, or other unions."
ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, says, "Using jumpseats to retaliate against an individual, pilot group, or company is not only wrong. It could also result in violations of the Railway Labor Act, if pilots took those actions to harm a company during collective bargaining." Gigantic fines could be levied against a pilot group if its members misused jumpseats in this way.
"The jumpseat is a mutually beneficial tool that helps airlines and pilots by enhancing safety, security, and efficiency," Capt. Woerth noted. "Both parties must guard against any activities that may damage the viability of that invaluable resource."
Check out more ALPA news and information 24-7 at crewroom.alpa.org
February 17, 2006—In this issue:
[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] ALPA Reasserts Policy on Jumpseat Restrictions[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] Northwest, Delta Pilots Picket Across Continent[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] ALPA to Host Scheduling Seminar for MEC Reps
ALPA Reasserts Policy on Jumpseat Restrictions
During these times of airline turmoil, airlines may be tempted to place artificial restrictions -- specifically, those that do not involve safety concerns -- on using jumpseats. ALPA strongly disagrees with such restrictions and has always maintained that jumpseats should be off limits to any type of dispute that is not related to safety.
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Images/ImageView.aspx?itemid=982
ALPA's jumpseat policy, contained in Section 115 of the ALPA Administrative Manual, speaks directly to this subject: "ALPA supports the Captain's authority to exclude any person other than required crew from the flight deck if, in his opinion, that person's presence will compromise safety.
"Denial of jumpseat privileges as a means of punishing, coercing, or retaliating against other pilot groups or individuals is not supported by ALPA. The Jumpseat and/or Professional Standards Representative appointed by the respective Master Executive Council or governing body should resolve disputes that arise between pilots, airlines, or other unions."
ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, says, "Using jumpseats to retaliate against an individual, pilot group, or company is not only wrong. It could also result in violations of the Railway Labor Act, if pilots took those actions to harm a company during collective bargaining." Gigantic fines could be levied against a pilot group if its members misused jumpseats in this way.
"The jumpseat is a mutually beneficial tool that helps airlines and pilots by enhancing safety, security, and efficiency," Capt. Woerth noted. "Both parties must guard against any activities that may damage the viability of that invaluable resource."
Last edited:
Just put in the GOM revision today, the jumpseat is back to the way it was before. Anyone who flies for our codeshare partners (United, American, USAir) or a regional affiliate of our codeshare partners can once again sit up front on TSA flights.
Now can we please take the sticky off this thread?
Now can we please take the sticky off this thread?
KingKong2 said:
Why don't you quote what Duane had to say at the rally about scumbags like you and alter ego outfits like g0jets Dan? Pick and choose, cut and paste. Nobody is fooled.
G0jet = Whipsaw-alter ego. Dan, you are marked.
getting on the jumpseat is the least of your problems; good luck in your future job search.
elcapitan
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2004
- Posts
- 43
redbook said:
If TSA had not used the jumpseat as a political tool this would have never happened. They went against the policy of ALPA to keep the jumpseat open and got smacked down by their management.
GJ is not an alter ego as you have stated because of there contractural agreements. There had to be two airlines. It is the same situation that Chautauqua/Republic was in. A 50 seat airline flying for American under American Connection can only fly 50 seats per the APA scope clause. That is why Republic and GJ were started; to fly 70 seat aircraft.
So were is the alter-ego?
Do you think that either of these companies wanted to go through the cost of starting another airline?
The answer is no.
It is expensive to start an airline up.
Republic, Shuttle and Chautauqua all have separate pilot groups. The only difference between them and GJ's is: Republic, Shuttle and Chautauqua have one seniority list that they negotiated with the company and the TSA pilots did not vote in their TA merging the two pilot lists. I also know I am going to hear about how bad a deal it was. But guess what? It was the deal your MEC negotiated and probably was the best one at the time. The fact is they had a deal and voted it down. End of story. Time to move on.
elcapitan said:
The first half of your post is accurate. TSAH had to create a second certificate and, yes, that makes it similar to republic/CHQ. However, everyone at tsa knew that management was going to whipsaw tsa pilots with their new certificate. Republic/CHQ pilots were united and their management came to fair terms quickly, and kept one list. TSA management, aided and abetted by a few of the weakest tsa pilots continued with creating their WHIPSAW ALTER EGO.
What deal are you referring to? Is that what you would call a sub standard contract lasting 15 years? I guess you would call a surrender a "deal".
TSA pilots stood their ground. Despite your false statements and lack of knowledge of the situation, the story ain't over. TSA pilots continue to "move on" as you instructed. G0jet scum...are stuck with the piece of crap they created. One of the few airlines without pay rates on airlinepilotpay? G0jet. I wonder why.
millhouse21
No longer in the Sand Box
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
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Just wanted to say that if anyone is curious about GJ pay it is the same fo pay for the first five years as PSA. So they are not lowering in bar....you are limbo.....ing under the same bar as the previous guy. As far as comparing captains pay...it is only two dollars less but none of us are going to be hired as a captain so it really doesnt matter. One more thing...they just got representation so the pay is bound to go up a bit otherwise why would they sign a contract with the same pay but will have to pay union dues.
elcapitan said:
Um, if it's one seniority list, doesn't that make it the same pilot group? Or is that too logical for the airline industry. And the MEC did not negotiate the POS deal we were offered, management just came up with something they knew we'd probably reject and said take it or leave it (the wording of the LOA they offered wouldn't have fixed the problem either, it was full of exploitable loopholes). There had to be two certificates, there did not have to be two pilot groups. And honestly, yes I do think they wanted to go through the process of starting another airline. If they didn't want to, why would they have?
Is the horse dead yet? Or can we beat it some more?
pilotbrain
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pilotbrain
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PROCEDURAL BACKGROUND On September 14, 2005, IBT filed an application alleging a representation dispute involving the Pilots on *************************. On September 15, 2005, ALPA filed an application for a single carrier determination involving ************************* and TSA. The application was given NMB File No. CR-6885 and assigned to Investigator Cristina A. Bonaca. On October 7, 2005, TSA and ************************* filed a joint initial position statement. The Organizations responded with their respective position statements on October 17, 2005. On October 28, 2005, the Carriers filed a joint supplemental response. ISSUE Are TSA and ************************* operating as a single transportation system? If so, what are the representation consequences? CONTENTIONS ALPA ALPA contends that the wholly-owned airline affiliates of Trans States Holdings, Inc. (TSH), TSA and *************************, constitute a single transportation system for representation purposes for the craft or class of Pilots. ALPA argues that the two Carriers: share common facilities; have a common main hub; are both wholly-owned by the same individual, Hulas Kanodia; and have overlapping management. ALPA additionally asserts that labor relations at the two Carriers is handled jointly in many respects as evidenced by the facts that: TSA Pilots were offered employment at ************************* with pay and longevity based on their length of service at TSA, up to a maximum of five years; some Pilots who are currently working for ************************* are still on TSA’s Pilot seniority list and are officially considered on a “leave of absence” from TSA; recruitment and issuance of flight passes are handled by the same persons for both Carriers; and employees have been hired by one entity and transferred to the other without additional interviews.
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In addition, ALPA contends that in August and September 2005, TSA Pilots were flying new routes not previously flown (between St. Louis and Denver, and between Chicago and Tulsa) pending *************************’s receipt of authority to perform scheduled passenger flying. ALPA argues that the flying of these new routes by TSA Pilots coupled with the fact that TSA’s Manager of Crew Planning was asked to run sample schedules for ************************* during this period evidences an exchange of flight operations between the two entities. As the TSA Pilot group is substantially larger than the ************************* Pilot group, ALPA contends that its existing certification should be extended to cover the ************************* Pilot group within the single transportation system. ALPA states further that, at the very least, “the Board must conduct a full investigation and order an evidentiary hearing so that the evidence may be fully and fairly considered.”
2 ALPA provided declarations from two TSA Pilots in support of its position, as well as other documentary evidence. IBT The IBT is in agreement with the position of TSA and ************************* and contends that despite their common ownership by TSH, there is no integration of operations or exercise of common control by the Carriers that would support a single transportation system finding. The IBT relies on the evidence submitted by the Carriers and urges the Board to dismiss ALPA’s single carrier application and process its application for representation of the Pilots on *************************. *************************/TSA ************************* and TSA filed jointly in this matter and request the Board to deny ALPA’s request for a single transportation system determination. The Carriers explain that ************************* was The Board finds that it had sufficient information from the parties’ submissions to render a decision in this matter without conducting a hearing.
pilotbrain
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created as a separate entity to operate 70 seat CRJ-700 aircraft (high capacity aircraft with more than 50 seats) -- aircraft that TSA is prohibited from flying. TSA has an Air Services Agreement with American Airlines (American) that prohibits it from flying aircraft with more than 50 seats, because of a scope clause provision in American’s collective bargaining agreement (CBA) with the Allied Pilots Association (APA). Thus, the Carriers stated: “Holdings created ************************* as a way to keep pace with its competitors and expand its business, while simultaneously ensuring that TSA remains compliant with its American Air Services Agreement.” The Carriers contend that the evidence clearly demonstrates that they are operating as two separate transportation systems. TSA and ************************* have: 1) separate Certificates of Public Convenience and Necessity issued by the Department of Transportation (DOT); 2) separate Air Carrier Certificates issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA); 3) separate offices accessible only with an electronic key card, even though both entities are located in the same office building; 4) no interlocking management even though both are owned by the same holding company; 5) separately administered labor and personnel functions, as evidenced by separate websites, employment applications, wage rates, benefits plans, and payroll accounts; 6) separate aircraft, training simulators, and operating and flight manuals; and 7) separate workforces evidenced by separate seniority lists and employee rosters. While ************************* is currently contracting out some functions to TSA on a temporary basis, the Carriers contend that this contracting will conclude as soon as ************************* is fully staffed. The Carriers provided affidavits and other documentary evidence in support of their position. FINDINGS OF LAW Determination of the issues in this case is governed by the Railway Labor Act (RLA), as amended, 45 U.S.C. § 151,
et seq. Accordingly, the Board finds as follows:
pilotbrain
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TSA and ************************* are common carriers as defined in 45 U.S.C. § 181, First. II. The IBT and ALPA are labor organizations and/or representatives as defined in 45 U.S.C. § 151, Sixth, and § 152, Ninth. III. 45 U.S.C. § 152, Fourth, gives employees subject to its provisions, “the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for purposes of this chapter.” IV. 45 U.S.C. § 152, Ninth, provides that the Board has the duty to investigate representation disputes and to designate who may participate as eligible voters in the event an election is required. In determining the choice of the majority of employees, the Board is “authorized to take a secret ballot of the employees involved, or to utilize any other appropriate method of ascertaining the names of their duly designated and authorized representatives . . . by the employees without interference, influence, or coercion exercised by the carrier.” STATEMENT OF FACTS Background TSA is a regional airline that has Air Service Agreements that provide for code-sharing and marketing agreements with a number of major carriers, including American, United Airlines (United), and US Airways. TSA’s Air Service Agreement with American, encompassing a large portion of its business,
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prohibits it from flying any aircraft with more than 50 passengers due to a scope clause provision in American’s CBA with the APA. Therefore, TSA’s fleet is composed entirely of aircraft that fly 50 or fewer passengers. American has the right to terminate its contract with TSA if it operates any aircraft with more than 50 seats. ************************* was created by TSH so that it could expand its business and compete with other regional carriers who are flying higher capacity aircraft. Corporate Transactions and Representation TSA is incorporated in Missouri. On April 16, 1993, ALPA was certified as the representative of the craft or class of Pilots on TSA. (R-6166). TSA currently employs 1,534 employees, 646 of whom are Pilots. ************************* was formed under the laws of Delaware as a Limited Liability Company (LLC), thus it is not incorporated and has no Board of Directors. ************************* began revenue flying on September 22, 2005. As of September 26, 2005, ************************* employed approximately 154 employees, including approximately 30 Pilots in its Flight Operations Division. *************************’s Pilots are currently unrepresented. TSH, the holding company for ************************* and TSA, is owned by Hulas Kanodia. Kanodia has not been involved with the day-to-day management of TSA for over four years, and has never been involved with the day-to-day management of *************************. TSA and ************************* have separate Certificates of Public Convenience and Necessity issued by the DOT: TSA’s was issued by Order 89-5-64 on May 31, 1989; *************************’s was issued by Order 2005-8-10 on August 16, 2005. TSA and ************************* also have separate Air Carrier Certificates issued by the FAA: TSA’s Certificate Number is RAIA053A, effective 9/29/88, reissued 7/17/02; *************************’s Certificate Number is N6WA249L, effective 9/20/05. Management and Labor Relations *************************’s Director of Operations is Daniel E. Reed and he has been in this position since March 15, 2005. Reed was
pilotbrain
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employed as Vice President of Flight Operations for TSA until December of 2004. *************************’s Chief Pilot is Dennis D. Craig, who was formerly employed at TSA as the Manager of Flight Standards. *************************’s Director of Maintenance is William Scott Reid, who was formerly employed at TSA as the System Fleet Manager. *************************’s Director of Safety is Craig Tompkins, who was previously employed at TSA as Vice President of Safety and Regulatory Compliance. *************************’s Chief Inspector is Jeffrey Craig, who was formerly employed as TSA’s Director of Quality Assurance. Daniel E. Reed, Dennis D. Craig, William Scott Reid, Craig Tompkins, and Jeffrey Craig all left their positions with TSA before joining *************************. Reed is in charge of Labor Relations at *************************. David J. A. Hayes, III is the Vice President and General Counsel at TSA and is in charge of TSA’s labor relations. Hayes testified that he has no involvement in labor relations at *************************. Personnel functions are currently administered separately by TSA and ************************* at every step of the employment process. TSA’s website,
http://www.transstates.net/, has a “Careers” section which lists open positions at TSA; the website does not list any open positions at *************************. The website lists various “transstates.net” email addresses to which individuals can submit their resumes, depending on the department where the position is located. Individuals interested in applying for TSA Pilot positions are directed to submit their resumes to Eileen Plante, TSA, 11495 Natural Bridge, Suite 212, Bridgeton, MO 63044. ************************* has its own website, http://www.*************************airlines.com, that has a “Careers” section which lists all open positions at *************************; the website does not list any open positions at TSA. The website directs interested applicants to email their resumes to recruiting@*************************airlines.com or mail them to: ************************* Airlines, 11495 Natural Bridge, Suite 133, Bridgeton, MO 63044. TSA and ************************* use different personnel forms and employment applications. The Carriers have different terms and conditions of employment, different wage rates, and separate benefit plans. The Carriers also have separate payroll and operational bank accounts.
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As ************************* only began revenue flying in September 2005, not all departments are fully staffed but hiring is continuing on a daily basis. Out of 154 current employees, ************************* has personnel working in the following divisions: Crew Scheduling; Customer Service Administration; Flight Control; Flight Operations; Inflight; and Maintenance. Out of *************************’s 30 Pilots, seven previously worked for TSA. Pilots recruited from other carriers, including TSA, were not asked to officially resign until ************************* received its certification. Prior to *************************’s certification, former TSA employees who accepted positions with ************************* were considered to be on an unpaid leave of absence from TSA. Once ************************* became certified, TSA received letters of resignation from all employees who had left TSA to join *************************. No ************************* employee remains on TSA’s seniority list or has any type of employment relationship with TSA. Reed testified: “None of the former TSA pilots currently employed by ************************* have received compensation or benefits from TSA while employed by *************************.” TSA and *************************’s workforces are not integrated and the Carriers maintain separate seniority lists and employee rosters. All ************************* and TSA employees have ID badges that identify them as exclusively working for their individual employer. Recruiting and Training Reed stated in his affidavit: “Until ************************* is fully staffed, it may outsource certain recruiting and training functions to TSA on an interim basis. While certain functions may be outsourced . . . . ************************* has and will continue to perform all of its own interviewing and hiring.” In an effort to recruit experienced Pilots, ************************* offered an incentive package for Pilots working at other carriers. Specifically, ************************* offered any Pilot working for any Part 121 carrier, including TSA, TransMeridian Airlines, Chicago Express Airlines, American Eagle, and Corporate Air, up to five years’ longevity credit for pay rates and vacation accrual if they came to work for *************************.
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