Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Ata

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
I've avoided posting my feelings on the ATA forum since that horse has been beaten to a mushy pulp, but I thought I would possibly enlighten some of the folks on the sidelines. I watched the taped webcast from our ALPA website, went to the MDW road show, and went home and voted for the LOA's.

ATA is in a cash-poor world of hurt right now. If we had a bunch of unrestricted cash, we would probably be able to muddle throught the next year or so until fuel prices go down or one of our competitors bites the dust. Given the loan covenants that dictate how we manage our cash, we only have a month and a half of operating cash on hand. Even if we hold our ground during the classically lucrative summer months, we would burn through our cash in the fourth and first quarters. Game over, Man.

Boeing's financing for the 717's is going to be contingent on ATAH getting some kind of relief from the organized employee groups BEFORE the deal is inked. Sealing the 717 deal will allow ATA to go ahead with the plan to move the 757's to the coasts to perform the overseas flying (which is apparently coming sooner, rather than later), while the 737's will move to the long haul cross-country stuff as the 717's arrive. The concessions and 717 rate and work rule LOA's will act as the starting gun for this to occur. Without them, we will be left in the gate.

ALPA's financial analyst said, that of the four scenarios floated by the company for the next few years, only the smaller jet version gave ATA any hope of long term survival, and it was a very sound business plan given the current LCC environment (ie. the only one that would generate significant additional revenue to the airline). Bottom line - this deal is our only hope. Plans B, C, and D involved: changing nothing, downsizing, or having Chicago Express operate new smaller (read RJ) aircraft.

To those who would vote this set of LOA's down in order to hold out for more the next time around: this is it. This was made very clear by the Negotiating Committee Chairman and the MEC. A no vote would force the company to utilize plans B, C, or D. I'm on my fifth airline, have nineteen years ten months and twenty six days to go until retirement, and I finally don't have to commute. I don't want to look for another job. I am satisfied from the information given by the Negotiating Committee, the MEC, and ALPA's financial analysis that the company is not simply playing us for a bunch of chumps, looking to chisel some cash out of us to help fund their latest half-a$$ed idea.

I respect the opinions of those who would vote no to this and stick it in the company's face, but haven't heard a valid argument as to why this deal isn't necessary, just criticism of the way our management has done business in the past. I agree. I have almost nothing but contempt for the way ATA management has played with themselves while the newcomer LCC's that haven't been around for thirty one frickin' years like we have leave us in the dust. I won't, however, cut off my nose to spite my face (or cut off their noses to spite my... wait... spite their faces... sh!t, time for another beer).

Fuk it. I voted yes.
 
I understand, BUT.....

njcapt said:
I'm on my fifth airline, have nineteen years ten months and twenty six days to go until retirement, and I finally don't have to commute. I don't want to look for another job.
[font=&quot]
Hate to say it but, you BETTER start looking for a job. With just over 1 months worth of cash left, our little agreement will only save about 1 million a month or so which is not enough fast enough. That is why I voted NO. I would rather keep what I have for the short time we have left. I really love this place, it has been VERY good to me but if everything the CO and UNION say is true we will be in BK (hopefully only BK11) by summers end.

Has anyone seen what we are paying for those 737s? There is NO way we will compete with ANYONE given the rate we pay for those airplanes. Its not what they pay any employee group on the property, it is the fact they HAD to pay those outrageous lease rates on the new a/c because of ATA's poor credit ratings. Combine that with high fuel prices, fierce competition, and mismanagement of revenue; all of which we cannot change (or even subsidize) and here we are.

Now the 64 million $ question; did they keep the cash on hand and credit ratings low on purpose for all those years intentionally? We will never know.

Even with all the explanations from the roadshow, IMHO, this is not a good agreement.

Good luck to us all.
[/font]
 
Last edited:
njcapt said:
I respect the opinions of those who would vote no to this and stick it in the company's face, but haven't heard a valid argument as to why this deal isn't necessary, just criticism of the way our management has done business in the past.
I do not believe that anyone with a good head on their shoulder would say this agreement is not necessary. The more important question(s) should be:

1. Will it truely help? Or will it just subsidize the puzzel palaces' continual bad decisions?

2. What did ATA do with all that money they saved while paying when paying their flight deck crewmembers (among others) 1/2 price for all those years?

There should be some accountability, and there has been none! A NO vote may actually be more beneficial to the company as a whole in the long run.

Again JMHO.
 
Last edited:
And another thing......

In the road show ALPA says that ATA may not be profitable until 2006.

Well, and I am aware of the the recent earnings warning, in the last 10-Q the company DID state that they could see a full year operating profit along with the standard forward reaching disclaimers. Since they already know the state of the industry (fuel prices, competitive factors, etc.), this tells me they are cautiously optimistic on this years financials. Not a large profit, but not a large loss either. Also, they warned on the quarters profit potential, but did not change they years outlook as a whole.

It concerns me a great deal to read a statement like that in the latest SEC 10-Q that basically says we could make money this year, then hear ALPA say we may not make money until 2006 at the earliest.

Seems like since the SEC statements could put someone in JAIL there would be a little more importance in being accurate. What accountablility is there if the ALPA people are wrong? HUM.

Take the road shows for what they are worth. I have yet to understand why they "sell" these agreements so hard when they are questionable at best for the membership. I thought I paid 1.95% (or whatever the number is) for ALPA to represent MY best interests, not to sell me on a questionable agreement. I have actually had ALPA National reps tell me "You voted for it" after the fact. Nice.

Lets use our brains folks, and leave the emotions (I'll loose my job if I vote NO) out of it!
 
Last edited:
tz800ca said:
Take the road shows for what they are worth. I have yet to understand why they "sell" these agreements so hard when they are questionable at best for the membership. I thought I paid 1.95% (or whatever the number is) for ALPA to represent MY best interests, not to sell me on a questionable agreement. I have actually had ALPA National reps tell me "You voted for it" after the fact. Nice.
I don't work for ATA (have several friends who do), but I can answer that question.

Your MEC was elected because those of you who voted believed they would represent the best interests of the pilot group as a whole. Assuming they did their best (and I have no reason to believe they haven't), once they put it out to you in the form of a TA, they are required by law to suport it!

If they didn't, the company could claim "bad faith bargaining" which would open up a whole new can of worms. That's why it's so important to have an MEC which you know will represent your wishes as a group, rather than having their own agenda, i.e. when the MEC is made up of "just" one group of pilots (all very senior, all very junior, etc), because once they put out a T.A., they're required to sell it to you to the best of their ability, just like we saw with Mesaba last year.

Personally, I would rather have seen management concede equal pay cuts, but I believe EVERY airline should be required to be held accountable like that for their own screw-ups, just like they do when they get bonuses during profitable times, especially when they ask for concessions from their work groups for their own mistakes.

Good luck to all of you over there! YO BLADE! :D
 
Dave (sorry if I've got the wrong guy), I took the information provided me by the people who represent me and my interests, did a little investigation on my own, listened to every opinion that I could find, and couldn't support your conspiracy theories with a single shred of evidence.

What did ATA do with all that money they saved while paying when paying their flight deck crewmembers (among others) 1/2 price for all those years?
I don't know, maybe they spent it on top shelf liquor and expensive whores. Is the money there now? No. They probably used it to fuel the 727's. Lemme get this straight. You want to punish the managers you think plundered the company by steering the company you work for onto the rocks? I don't think I'm going to follow you there.

[font=&quot]I would rather keep what I have for the short time we have left.
As a 7 year Captain you stand to make approximately $1000 more a month if this set of LOA's fails to be ratified. If the company fails just one month earlier due to our failure to concede, you will be out of a whole year's worth of extra pay. You better start picking up some serious open time if you feel this scenario is inevitable.
[/font]
[font=&quot]Now the 64 million $ question; did they keep the cash on hand and credit ratings low on purpose for all those years intentionally? We will never know.
... uuuhhhh, OK. I guess that's a really sophisticated tactic ATA management used to keep us down. [sarcasm]I've used that tactic myself to keep my interest rates high and limit my access to capital[/sarcasm].

Really, I don't want to argue about this (inspite of what my signature line says). I utilized every source I could to make an informed decision. Some people are going to disagree with me, and I can live with that. That is why we are voting on this - you know, democracy and all that. There seemed to be an information void on this forum, so I made my feelings known.
[/font]
 
[font=&quot]
njcapt said:
Dave (sorry if I've got the wrong guy), I took the information provided me by the people who represent me and my interests, did a little investigation on my own, listened to every opinion that I could find, and couldn't support your conspiracy theories with a single shred of evidence.
You have the wrong guy, KJ, if that is who you are.

That is why it is a democratic society, you have your opinions and I have mine.

Just one question (OK, maybe two or three): Were you here during the previous contract? Were you here during the ENTIRE 2 years it took to negotiate this deal? Do you remember how that deal was sold to us?

I can see why guys like you would want this agreement SO bad. They say you say YES, we get 717s. Great! You get to upgrade, right? Not so fast. The company would and will ditch up to 10 of those 737s like a hot potato. Why do you think the fragmentation letter is worded like it is? The 737 crews will get displaced and it will still take you 4 years to upgrade because of the displacements and the deliveries of the 717s will not start for at least 6 months. If this does not hold true for you, my apologies. I have run into F/Os recently that have that exact short-sided view.

Lemme get this straight. You want to punish the managers you think plundered the company by steering the company you work for onto the rocks? I don't think I'm going to follow you there.
So, saying no is "steering the company you work for onto the rocks"?

The numbers tell a different tale. Our measly 42.5 million is about 1.4% of 3 Billion in revenues over the two years (which is conservative). That’s .014xxxxx carry the zero as far as you wish. If that 1.4% is driving the CO on the rocks as you say, I guess that I am guilty as charged.

I prefer to look at the big picture. If that 1.4% would make a difference in the GRAND scheme of things, I would say HECK YESS! If $59,000 a day will save this company I will buy you a beer. No, I will buy you a keg of beer. So, will the money help? Only if the folks down south straighten up their act. They have not shown me any such behavior recently.

If the company fails just one month earlier due to our failure to concede, you will be out of a whole year's worth of extra pay. You better start picking up some serious open time if you feel this scenario is inevitable.
That is exactly what they want you to believe! Sign on the dotted line or the doors close, no 717s, furloughs, blah, blah, blah.

It is not like we will write them a check for 42.5 million on 7/1. It would be a theoretical check of about $59,000 a day. If the company shuts the doors over that kind of money, we are in real trouble and me keeping that 1 grand a month is pretty smart. My savings account is sufficient, my resume is up to date. I am ready either way.

As for the credit and cash thing, not really a conspiracy thing at all. I am not a financial wiz but it sort of makes sense that has actually happened to make ATAH less attractive to a hostile takeover. Poor credit and No Cash. On the other hand Good Credit, low lease rates on airplanes, lots of cash on hand, and a good business model would make us attractive to everyone (pre 911 that is). During the pre 911 days it working fine, but who knew 911 would come along and the industry would be in such dire straights? ALPA itself has said our basic finances have not changed in some 10+ years. Why is up for debate.

Debate is great, hugh? Especially when you do not get attacked personally.

NJ, was that not Vanguard?

Best Regards


P.S. Dave!?!?!?!? Come on, I thought my grammar and spelling were better than that.
[/font]
 
Last edited:
Wow, I can't argue with your concise logic (whoever you are).

You win, I'll change my vote to no.

KJ
 
Any word how people have been leaning on the TA? Curious how the general concensus is.
 
I think it will be voted in.


I'm sure you've heard about our CFO resigning for "personal reasons" a few days ago. Yuck.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top