ATA Scheduled Service Changes

[Sy-bill]

OK, here we go . . . . . I have quite a few friends at SWA, and I have always liked the company, but in the past year or two, it seems to me some things have definitely changed, and not necessarily for the better.

In my opinion, SWA used to be the underdog people rooted for. They hired good people, had something special, made money, generally worked well with others . . .

Now, as the 800-lb gorilla, some of their tactics aren't looking quite as right. PHL really comes to mind as an overly-aggressive maneuver, now with PIT announced, and CLT likely to follow, they are certainly going for the jugular. Do they need to? Nope. Now, I understand this is a cut-throat business, but they are taking off the gloves and working these guys at USAirways over with their bare fists. . . . . not really necessary, IMHO.

As for the pilots- when you had 300 airplanes that would pretend to miss a call from ground so they could gain the right-of-way, it wasn't so noticeable. Now that you have 600 airplanes out there doing it, it becomes obvious and obnoxious. And, is it me only, or have others noticed that some of the guys making it through the door over there aren't quite made of the same stuff as the rest?

Now we have this ATA thing . . . . AirTran was very upfront about its plans, while SWA pretends to be the "savior" of ATA. In the weeks and months ahead, I think it will become very obvious what they intend to do with ATA, and with MDW.

Do you eat your own poop......also?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

Come on dude. One guy ignores ground and now you think they are doing it on purpose. GMAFB.

If it was one guy, or even only ten guys, I wouldn't be making the post, now, would I, Sport? How about you GMAFB? Maybe I should make a new string, called "Ever been cut-off by SWA?" and see what kind of responses we get?

And now you are saying that the airlines are a cut-throat business and you can't believe it. Wow, you have a lot to learn my friend.

I didn't say "I can't believe it". Don't make up crap and put my name on it.

The point I am making is that the bigger SWA gets, the bigger its warts get, "friend", and the more obvious they become.

Try not to help me make that point, huh?

 

[capt. megadeth]

I flew out of MDW for 5 years and I have seen WN pilots do just what Ty said multiple times.

On another note....I know it is not SWA pilot's fault, but I have had ATC slow me down (while doing 250kts BELOW 10000ft) and put SWA in front. Gee, I didn't know a turboprop does 250 KIAS slower than a jet.

 

[sayagain?]

A few years back....

Going into ISP, late at night below 10000, airport in sight about 20 miles out. We're in a Dash 8 and right at baber pole, 247 knots. WN checks on behind us and also below 10k. ATC breaks us off so WN can go by. We ask "Why the vector? We have the field in sight and at max forward speed."

AtC says that "WN has close to 100 knots on you and gaining".

My repy, "Really, well, I'm doing almost 250 and they should be doing the same since we are both below 10000".

ATC, after a few seconds, "Well, they are just faster than you, turn right 90 degrees."

We've all been there, not to knock the WN pilots. Just my personal experience.

sayagain?

 

[FlyChicaga]

Even though I like Southwest, I've experienced that as well. Getting to the end of the runway with nobody around, sitting for three arrivals, then launching the SWA 737 that just pulled up on the other side. Or, when a SWA jet pulled out from their gate in CLE onto the active taxiway with us driving down it, only to call ground for taxi after they had already impeded our progress. Not once, but twice in a week.

Like I said, I like Southwest and their corporate culture, but I think Herb's quote applies: "Think and act big, get small. Think and act small, get big." A good dose of humility in these good times would do well while everyone else is hurting. Obviously you should be happy and proud of the successes of your employer, but it just seems the ego is getting larger with every other airline's failure. I should also say that this doesn't just apply to SWA.

 

[roughneck]

Gee, I didn't know a turboprop does 250 KIAS slower than a jet.

It doesn't, its what you do after you get in the line that matters. ATC knows that SWA means business and if they ask us to give our best forward speed they know we will. 30+ years of helping ATC out has built up a trust factor and they know that we will do what we say when ATC needs a hand. (our "new" procedures slow us down a bit, but ATC stills knows it can count on us to expedite as much as safely possible if they ask us to)

As far as clearing a SWA plane first when they weren't first in line, it could be many things. Slot time maybe? Flow? Or it could simply be that they know we wont screw around on the runway since they have traffic on final.

I know it must be frustrating for some of yall, but believe me, we are cut in front of too! We are slowed WAY down behind folks all the time. It is an equal opportunity hose job at most airports.

Please don't shoot the messenger, this topic just struck a nerve. We have to wait for hours sometimes too!

 

[capt. megadeth]

roughneck,
I see what you are saying, but I can do 250 to the marker in the Saab.......somehow, I don't think you can do that in the 737. I could be wrong....
I think Windy City has been around long enough for ATC to know that they could expedite as well.

 

[maddoggiestyle]

I asked my buddy who worked for Chicago center a few years ago why I was getting hosed in and out of MDW in a Jetsteam. He basically said it is not that they give preferential treatment to SWA, it is simply because a jet will get priority over a turboprop if using the same runway and when there is a tie because a jet has faster approach and departure speeds when getting close to the airport.

I'm not an ATC controller but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Select last night!

 

[TZFO]

Saabs can go 250?
A lot of b!tching going on here.
Ty, you sound like a little baby who gripes all day long in your little pilot seat about what you should have had your whole life and how you have been cheated out of what you are owed.
Lets face it, if you cant hang with the big dogs (SWA), stay on the porch.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Saabs can go 250?
A lot of b!tching going on here.
Lets face it, if you cant hang with the big dogs (SWA), stay on the porch.

He!! ya a Saab can go 250....in the winter

I want to hang with the big dogs...but ATC won't let me

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, you sound like a little baby who gripes all day long in your little pilot seat about what you should have had your whole life and how you have been cheated out of what you are owed

Really? That's pretty funny, because I don't feel like I have been deprived of anything, but I'll tell you what, sister, I have been posting on this board for over 7 years, just do a search and see if you can find anything to back up your little "theory" and post it. Good luck.

Secondly, my "little pilot seat" is probably the same seat as you are sitting in, except on the other side of the center console. How's your "little seat" treating you? Mine's treating me A-OK.

Lets face it, if you cant hang with the big dogs (SWA), stay on the porch.

Hmmm. This one is just pathetic. Unless YOU have a SWA class date, TZ FO, looks to me like YOU are the one who is going to be staying on the porch . . . . Oh, but it looks good on you.

What a frigging idiot.

 

[737tanker]

Ty Webb

The figures I quoted were in the Baltimore Sun. Again the figures aren't what is happenning now but what happened after SWA had been at BWI for only ONE year.
As for SWA being 100 kts faster going into ISP, if you are more than 12 miles off the coast (& coming from the south you normally are) then you can go faster than 250 below 10,000

 

[saabcaptain]

well maybe it is a MDW thing because from the jumpseat i have observed several ATA crews set speeds in the MCP over 250 below 10,000 in order to have slight (like 10 knots) advantages over the turboprops and others who are doing 250 correctly. while i don't condone the behavior it is hardly a WN issue, more an issue of a bunch of guys who want to cut in line and are using a bad way of getting ATC to do it.

 

[rudderdog]

furloughs at ATA aren't set yet but will be fairly deep it seems. 2000 hires may be in trouble.

Not sure where your info came from, and nobody really knows how many furloughes there will be of course, however, with many leaving for other jobs there will likely be a lot less actual furloughes. 2000 hires were not even on the inital hit list (unless you're confused with the Airtran deal). IMHO, it won't get passed 2003 hires. Maybe 150 total furloughes. Hope it's a lot less though!

 

[vc10]

Look at it from SWA's standpoint. They've always lived clean, kept themselves in tip-top shape, etc. Come 9/11, come the Iraq War, what happened? Govt handed out a lot of money to all the airlines, even made loans to some of them. What did that do? Kept alive airlines that weren't well run, that even without 9/11 and the Iraq War would likely have gone under. Was that a victimless action by the govt? No. Who did it hurt? SWA and its shareholders. Without govt aid, what would have happened? AWA, ATA and US Airways would all likely have gone down. Who would have benefitted? SWA and its shareholders.

ATA was badly run. That's a fact. In a bad state of the world, it should have gone down. SWA had to beat ATA not just once, but at least twice, due to successive injections of govt aid. Had ATA gone down, a lot of people would have been hurt, but that's the way business is supposed to work in this country. That's what "free market" means. The well run survive and the poorly run go out of business---and yes, innocent people get hurt along the way because, overall, we're all better off if we have a system like this.

So can you blame SWA if they're taking the gloves off? They're the biggest victim of all the stupid govt aid (and overall, how much has that aid helped the business? Not a lot, just look at the state it is in...)

OK, here we go . . . . . I have quite a few friends at SWA, and I have always liked the company, but in the past year or two, it seems to me some things have definitely changed, and not necessarily for the better.

In my opinion, SWA used to be the underdog people rooted for. They hired good people, had something special, made money, generally worked well with others . . .

Now, as the 800-lb gorilla, some of their tactics aren't looking quite as right. PHL really comes to mind as an overly-aggressive maneuver, now with PIT announced, and CLT likely to follow, they are certainly going for the jugular. Do they need to? Nope. Now, I understand this is a cut-throat business, but they are taking off the gloves and working these guys at USAirways over with their bare fists. . . . . not really necessary, IMHO.

As for the pilots- when you had 300 airplanes that would pretend to miss a call from ground so they could gain the right-of-way, it wasn't so noticeable. Now that you have 600 airplanes out there doing it, it becomes obvious and obnoxious. And, is it me only, or have others noticed that some of the guys making it through the door over there aren't quite made of the same stuff as the rest?

Now we have this ATA thing . . . . AirTran was very upfront about its plans, while SWA pretends to be the "savior" of ATA. In the weeks and months ahead, I think it will become very obvious what they intend to do with ATA, and with MDW.


Good luck to all concerned.

 

[TZFO]

ty

"Hmmm. This one is just pathetic. Unless YOU have a SWA class date, TZ FO, looks to me like YOU are the one who is going to be staying on the porch . . . . Oh, but it looks good on you. "

I'll be sitting on the porch studying for a guaranteed interview at the most sucessful airline ever. Not too bad of a summer gig.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

ATA. What a dump. Ten years ago, they couldn't pay pilots to stay. Then, all-of-a-sudden, they were like- "Competition continues to be incredibly fierce, if the candidate doesn't have at least 5000 hours, and heavy time they can forget getting an interview...." Now look at 'em. Butt wipes.

 

[NuGuy]

"Ever been cut-off by SWA?" and see what kind of responses we get?

Too true, Ty...

In PHL it's pretty obnoxious. I've seen SWA make numerous "oops, wrong turn" to slip in the back way (spot 11), despite hanging up everyone else trying to get out that way. Way too many to be coincidence.

Same goes for the foot race to depart "oops, ramp, guess we should have been talking to you" after cutting off 2 aircraft ahead.

Lets face it...you can push the power up or go direct somewhere, but in reality, you are going to save or make up very little time in the air over whats flight planned. The real time savings is on the ground, and SWA pushes it right to the limit. Seems like the crews are banking on the fact that ramp (which is amost never "real" ATC) and ground never calls them on it.

Hehe, although one time...Right when they started flying out of BWI back in the day they got bit ch slapped pretty hard. BWI ground would sequence you by when you called to taxi. Good 'ole SWA calls up for the taxi, and the intrepid ground controller sees the tug still attached, and the airplane moving backwards. Man, they got read the riot act. Basically the controller goes "once you are ready to taxi, proceed to xxx and hold there, you are number 38 for departure. Welcome to Baltimore"

What goes around comes around...

Nu

 

[Ty Webb]

I'll be sitting on the porch studying for a guaranteed interview at the most sucessful airline ever. Not too bad of a summer gig.

If that's what you want, more power to ya. Hope they don't see the side of you that you've been showing on this board, though, or the only offer you'll get is a positive-space seat back home.

 

[flyhard]

Ty,

You must have been hired before Valujet actually started screening applicants, otherwise you would have had a seat on the other side, meaning airport fence.

Oak Boy,

Yep ATA does hire the best. Sour grapes? And now look at us, one of the best in the business still. Your "dumpy" attitude may explain why you are still in an RJ.