Astar - Point The Blame Where It Belongs

[Big Beer Belly]

You Astar guys have blamed DHL and UPS for your misfortune and picketed both companies. A few questions:

1. Why haven't you picketed YOUR employer (Astar) for becoming wholly reliant on a single contract for its viability?

2. Since 2003, when Astar became a separate contractor entity with a single contract for its survival, didn't any of you think to yourselves, "Gee self, I have an awful lot of eggs in one basket and if that basket fails I'll be in a world of hurt!"


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted?

IMO, you blame DHL and UPS... when you ought to be "blaming" Astar and to a lesser degree the mirror for the situation you're in.


BBB

(Used to be sympathetic till you picketed UPS.)

 

[eatme]

BBB, all valid points, my question to you is, why do you care if they picket UPS? Your management neither cares for IPA and your pilot concerns as a whole. So why lose sympathy for DHL/ASTAR/ ATSG or whatever they call themselves.

P.S. I don't work for any of the above groups, just your major rival, and I am curious as to your reasoning.

 

[hvydriver]

You Astar guys have blamed DHL and UPS for your misfortune and picketed both companies. A few questions:

1. Why haven't you picketed YOUR employer (Astar) for becoming wholly reliant on a single contract for its viability?

2. Since 2003, when Astar became a separate contractor entity with a single contract for its survival, didn't any of you think to yourselves, "Gee self, I have an awful lot of eggs in one basket and if that basket fails I'll be in a world of hurt!"


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted?

IMO, you blame DHL and UPS... when you ought to be "blaming" Astar and to a lesser degree the mirror for the situation you're in.


BBB

(Used to be sympathetic till you picketed UPS.)

That would be because Astar, and to a lesser degree ABX, are limited in what they could do outside DHL lift per their respective ACMI agreements. Astar could only do DOD charter essentially, and ABX is limited to 10% above DHL revenues. (ABX guys correct me if I'm off on this.) These were terms insisted on by DHL. In exchange for this, there were job security covenants made, and long term ACMI contracts for Astar. Just so you kids know, we filed suit against DHL in Clinton Co. court this past week. Fun fun!

(Was just picketing UPS management, till BBB came into the picture.) J/K UPS guys.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

BBB, all valid points, my question to you is, why do you care if they picket UPS? Your management neither cares for IPA and your pilot concerns as a whole. So why lose sympathy for DHL/ASTAR/ ATSG or whatever they call themselves.

P.S. I don't work for any of the above groups, just your major rival, and I am curious as to your reasoning.

I care in that UPS is blameless in this instance. They are a corporation attempting to maximize shareholder return. Why attack UPS? What have they done wrong?

As far as UPS "caring for the IPA or its pilots' concerns"... interesting question. I'd answer by saying we try to change the things we have influence over and simply accept those over which we have no influence. Large corporations are impersonal. I don't need to have my inputs valued or even considered to feel job satisfaction. I simply show up, operate the aircraft safely and in compliance with SOP's and FAR's and don't hear a peep till recurrent rolls around.

The situation works for me.


BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

That would be because Astar, and to a lesser degree ABX, are limited in what they could do outside DHL lift per their respective ACMI agreements.

Interesting Hvy... thanks for the info.

Job "assurances" aside, I would think that aging aircraft, no new aircraft acquisitions, declining market share and increasing financial losses by DHL would all portend future career uncertainty. Setting "blame" aside for the moment, you must acknowledge that continuing in this employment situation significantly elevated the risk of an interruption to your income in the future. Evidently, you considered that risk acceptable. I have no problem with that. My heartburn is you blaming UPS for your current predicament rather than acknowledging the elevated risk you assumed by staying with Astar post 2003.


BBB

 

[fob727]

clueless!

You Astar guys have blamed DHL and UPS for your misfortune and picketed both companies. A few questions:

1. Why haven't you picketed YOUR employer (Astar) for becoming wholly reliant on a single contract for its viability?

2. Since 2003, when Astar became a separate contractor entity with a single contract for its survival, didn't any of you think to yourselves, "Gee self, I have an awful lot of eggs in one basket and if that basket fails I'll be in a world of hurt!"


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted?

IMO, you blame DHL and UPS... when you ought to be "blaming" Astar and to a lesser degree the mirror for the situation you're in.


BBB

(Used to be sympathetic till you picketed UPS.)

Here is a j/o who sits on his perch and lectures other pilots when he is clueless. This also someone that if this deal goes through and when some IPA flying goes away, he will let jobs vanish without a whimper...like the lapdog he is.

Gotta be management!

 

[rotor&wing]

It's funny when Big Beer Belly, BrowntotheBone and eatme start having conversations with himself.

BTW, he just PM'ed me claiming one of his personalities was not him. LOL!!

What this idiot doesn't realize is all his personalities use the same syntax, the same grammar and the same spelling errors. Very easy to spot. (Now watch him try to cover that up)

It's no wonder Airborne fired him.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

R&W... your tired mantra of troll, I'm mgmt, I'm other people is old. If you disagree with what I say, just state why. It's not that difficult.

fob... when someone posts a dissenting OPINION to your views you immediately go for the insults. I can't imagine this has served you well in life. Just type why you disagree...


BBB

 

[rotor&wing]

R&W... your tired mantra of troll, I'm mgmt, I'm other people is old. If you disagree with what I say, just state why. It's not that difficult.

fob... when someone posts a dissenting OPINION to your views you immediately go for the insults. I can't imagine this has served you well in life. Just type why you disagree...


BBB

never called you management, just identified who you really are. Obviously you can't handle the truth.

 

[hvydriver]

Interesting Hvy... thanks for the info.

Job "assurances" aside, I would think that aging aircraft, no new aircraft acquisitions, declining market share and increasing financial losses by DHL would all portend future career uncertainty. Setting "blame" aside for the moment, you must acknowledge that continuing in this employment situation significantly elevated the risk of an interruption to your income in the future. Evidently, you considered that risk acceptable. I have no problem with that. My heartburn is you blaming UPS for your current predicament rather than acknowledging the elevated risk you assumed by staying with Astar post 2003.


BBB

Actually, right up until DPWN revealed it's awesome plan, Astar was negotiating a refleet with DHL. That has been going on since DHL bought back into Astar. As to "blaming" UPS (as a company), the entire crux of the case as far as we and the state of OH are concerned is that it has the potential to violate US anti-trust laws. To have a concern in this arena, there has to be two to tango. I would think that would be plainly obvious. Without a company willing to negotiate with DHL to carry their material, there is no anti-trust violation, because DHL would have no one to do it but themselves, or their current contractors, Astar and ABX. This, and the false representations made to both Astar and ALPA during our contract negotiations are the two areas we are taking action in.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

To have a concern in this arena, there has to be two to tango. I would think that would be plainly obvious.

Plainly obvious? I'm no lawyer, but it seems replacing one contractor with another to do the exact same service can hardly be categorized as anti-competitive. Right now someone sorts their stuff and flies it. In the future, "someone" is replaced by UPS. That's the extent of the announced customer-vendor relationship. Where's the anti-trust issue?


BBB

 

[shooter]

Plainly obvious? I'm no lawyer, but it seems replacing one contractor with another to do the exact same service can hardly be categorized as anti-competitive. Right now someone sorts their stuff and flies it. In the future, "someone" is replaced by UPS. That's the extent of the announced customer-vendor relationship. Where's the anti-trust issue?


BBB

The DoJ killed the UAL/USAir deal for anti-trust issues due to market overlap and there are plenty of pax carriers out there. This is a case where one of the 3 big guys will buddy up with their competitor for exclusive airlift service. I can see how they have a very strong case against DHL and UPS. I can see that argument and I don't know squat about anti-trust law. Who knows how the DoJ will rule, but it will be a good fight from both sides, I predict.

EDIT: I just want to add that ABX and Astar are contractors with DHL, UPS however is a competitor.

 

[bukakke]

The antitrust issue stems from market control. Market control is given to UPS because of their package tracking system. DHL in order to ship a package on UPS, relinquishes all customer information including pricing to UPS.....hence the lack of competition and the antitrust

 

[fob727]

I simply show up, operate the aircraft safely and in compliance with SOP's and FAR's and don't hear a peep till recurrent rolls around.

The situation works for me.



.....Lapdog...


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted

.....clueless....

No insults, just facts

 

[Big Beer Belly]

This is a case where one of the 3 big guys will buddy up with their competitor for exclusive airlift service.

With UPS providing sort and airlift for DHL, how is competition materially reduced? Access to pricing and package flows, in a general sense at least, is well known in the industry among competitors. All sorts of firms do market analysis for a multitude of clients (transportation companies, large shippers, brokerage houses, pension funds, etc...)

UPS and FedEx have provided airlift services to one of their chief competitors for years without anti-trust issues. Asset sharing is common in the broader transportation industry. How is the USPS/UPS situation different from the DHL/UPS relationship of vendor and contractor.

The only reason this deal is receiving any scrutiny at all is due to election year politics. I predict a lot of noise from politicians and those who feel entitled to employment. In the end, no anti-trust issues will emerge. JMO.


BBB

 

[shooter]

With UPS providing sort and airlift for DHL, how is competition materially reduced? Access to pricing and package flows, in a general sense at least, is well known in the industry among competitors. All sorts of firms do market analysis for a multitude of clients (transportation companies, large shippers, brokerage houses, pension funds, etc...)

UPS and FedEx have provided airlift services to one of their chief competitors for years without anti-trust issues. Asset sharing is common in the broader transportation industry. How is the USPS/UPS situation different from the DHL/UPS relationship of vendor and contractor.

The only reason this deal is receiving any scrutiny at all is due to election year politics. I predict a lot of noise from politicians and those who feel entitled to employment. In the end, no anti-trust issues will emerge. JMO.


BBB

Well, lets look at what happens when a consumer wants to ship something by air freight. If this DHL/UPS deal goes through, their only option would be for their package to go on a Brown plane or a Purple plane. No matter who they ship with, their ONLY air option will be priced from one of those two carriers. Please don't say you do not see that as a problem for consumer pricing. Sure, that swings the power curve to you and FedEx, but that is a lot of power that the DoJ surely would consider. Don't you think?

Maybe you are right that it is only producing political pressure due to an election year. Or maybe they realize just how devastating it would be to other small businesses, the district tax base that would affect not just the households but the schools, police, fire and other community services. I would think that is why they are involved more than just to "save the jobs" campaign. Maybe I am wrong.

AGAIN with the entitled to a job. It is much more than that, really. I know that may be hard for you to see but it is not entitlement.

 

[hvydriver]

With UPS providing sort and airlift for DHL, how is competition materially reduced? Access to pricing and package flows, in a general sense at least, is well known in the industry among competitors. All sorts of firms do market analysis for a multitude of clients (transportation companies, large shippers, brokerage houses, pension funds, etc...)

UPS and FedEx have provided airlift services to one of their chief competitors for years without anti-trust issues. Asset sharing is common in the broader transportation industry. How is the USPS/UPS situation different from the DHL/UPS relationship of vendor and contractor.

The only reason this deal is receiving any scrutiny at all is due to election year politics. I predict a lot of noise from politicians and those who feel entitled to employment. In the end, no anti-trust issues will emerge. JMO.


BBB

Because the USPS in theory, is a government backed service. DHL is not. DPWN, DHL's new and not-so-loved parent company, is almost fully divested of German government influence. It will be all gone by the end of 2009, I believe. May be off a bit there. Sharing of proprietary information between two commercial carriers is knocking the door on anti-trust issues. Like it or not, there are legal issues here. I don't expect the deal to be overturned, but I'd be willing to bet it will be looked at. Of course, looking at DHL's track record since the DPWN buyout, I'd further be willing to bet that they'll screw this deal up too.

 

[Jetglow]

Hey big beer belly....

1. Are you also known as Brown To The bone but you are afraid to reveal your known pinheadedness?

2. Do you get off on people losing their jobs?

3. Do you think it is whimpy for a pilot group to fight for it's job?

4. Are you so stupid that you think a quarterback is a refund?

5. Are you so stupid....that you sit on the TV, and watch the couch?

6. Is your Beer Belly so fat that we are actually inside of you right now?

Please dont fart......I still need a job.

Thanks for your input bigbeerbellybrownundiestain

 

[AV8OR]

You Astar guys have blamed DHL and UPS for your misfortune and picketed both companies. A few questions:

1. Why haven't you picketed YOUR employer (Astar) for becoming wholly reliant on a single contract for its viability?

2. Since 2003, when Astar became a separate contractor entity with a single contract for its survival, didn't any of you think to yourselves, "Gee self, I have an awful lot of eggs in one basket and if that basket fails I'll be in a world of hurt!"


I understand most of you did not SEEK out this contractor situation you found yourselves "evolved" into. Nevertheless, that's been your status for at least 5 years... COMPLETELY dependent on a single contract for your company's survival. Didn't this raise any warning flags? What made you feel secure enough to stay at Astar these past 5 years? Was it the aging, fuel-inefficient fleet of 30-40 year-old aircraft you were operating with no plan for replacement? Perhaps it was the dwindling volume, erosion of market share and ever increasing losses DHL was ringing up each of the past 5 years that gave you the warm fuzzy that life would continue uninterrupted?

IMO, you blame DHL and UPS... when you ought to be "blaming" Astar and to a lesser degree the mirror for the situation you're in.


BBB

(Used to be sympathetic till you picketed UPS.)

Lord have mercy!!!! I don't know if this is the guy I know over there or not, but either way, let me just chime in with this.....

A. When was the last time a highly profitable airline was picketed by the pilots because they didn't like how management was making the profit? What an everlovin rediculous statement!!! Management already takes into account sooo much of what the pilots think in their business decisions. Yeah...picketing Astar for doing the same job we've always done.....that would have been VERY affective!!!

B. Sure I considered how being an ACMI carrier status would change things. Here's what I came up with and it relates to the question on our aging fleet. DHL has two competitors that have spent BILLIONS on their fleet changes. DHL hasn't spent jack on theirs, yet, from a performance standpoint, we either met or exceeded the performance goals set for us. UPS and FedEx would I'm sure LOVE to get the performance we get out of our BS fleet for the cost we do it at. But DHL has never realized what it had here and has squandered every bit of good.

For a UPS pilot to act like it's a bizarre thing to go to work for the world's largest shipping company and expect it to be around just like UPS and FedEx....is pretty friggen arrogant. DHL....AStar etc. they are dishonest pure and simple.

You know we're here. It is what it is. I understand BBB that you think our case has no merit, that apparently we should just give up and go home, or whatever.....But you must know that you, a UPS pilot getting on here and telling my I'm naive and stupid for fighting for a my job?...... kinda rings hollow.

Further more...I think you know your questions are in no way constructive and simply meant to stir the pot.

Look yourself in the mirror.

 

[waka]

Lord have mercy!!!! I don't know if this is the guy I know over there or not, but either way, let me just chime in with this.....

A. When was the last time a highly profitable airline was picketed by the pilots because they didn't like how management was making the profit? What an everlovin rediculous statement!!! Management already takes into account sooo much of what the pilots think in their business decisions. Yeah...picketing Astar for doing the same job we've always done.....that would have been VERY affective!!!

B. Sure I considered how being an ACMI carrier status would change things. Here's what I came up with and it relates to the question on our aging fleet. DHL has two competitors that have spent BILLIONS on their fleet changes. DHL hasn't spent jack on theirs, yet, from a performance standpoint, we either met or exceeded the performance goals set for us. UPS and FedEx would I'm sure LOVE to get the performance we get out of our BS fleet for the cost we do it at. But DHL has never realized what it had here and has squandered every bit of good.

For a UPS pilot to act like it's a bizarre thing to go to work for the world's largest shipping company and expect it to be around just like UPS and FedEx....is pretty friggen arrogant. DHL....AStar etc. they are dishonest pure and simple.

You know we're here. It is what it is. I understand BBB that you think our case has no merit, that apparently we should just give up and go home, or whatever.....But you must know that you, a UPS pilot getting on here and telling my I'm naive and stupid for fighting for a my job?...... kinda rings hollow.

Further more...I think you know your questions are in no way constructive and simply meant to stir the pot.

Look yourself in the mirror.

I have no dog in this fight but BBB has a point. This isn't UPS' fault. Y'all should be protesting DHL, not UPS. I am even sympathetic to you guys but, UPS isn't your enemy.