Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Astar/ABX

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Eric,

You make assumptions that in the event we were to win our scope claim against DHL, we would be instantly and absolutely looking to wipe ABX out.

Actually, by looking closely at our scope language, and thinking about it, there is another outcome that would meet the contractual needs of the ASTAR pilots without shutting ABX down.

DHL arguably owes our pilots damages of some sort by trying weasel out of its commitments. That's why I can't drop the grievance. I'm certainly not going to get sued for not enforcing our contract as written. It is a horrible precedent for everyone.

But, really your EBoard and our MEC should come to an agreement about what will happen if we were to win.

I suspect you'll find that all this poking each other in the eye over scope was just a waste of everyone's time because both DHL Airways and ABX Air leadership at the time (2003) were being parochial and were not being realistic.

Both sides.

Earl

PS I still need an ABX seniority list with DOB.

DOB? Do you mean Date of Hire? I doubt the E-Board can provide Date of Birth without violating privacy laws.

I'm not sure what a judge (or arbitrator) would have done. If it was found there was merit in your case it could easily have resulted in DHL being ordered to cease doing business with ABX. Had that been done, then Astar could have simply contracted with ABX on behalf of DHL to haul the freight Astar was incapable of hauling. The excess lift in the sytem could have gradually been phased out (it was anyway) and then the fun would have begun.

ABX's ACMI allows it to "put" surplus aircraft to DHL. Those aircraft could then have been transferred to Astar, increasing Astar's lift. Astar could hire off the street to crew them, perhaps with preferential interviews to furloughed ABX pilots, who would wind up on the bottom of your seniority list. As Astar's lift was increased by the former ABX aircraft, more ABX aircraft would have been parked as being surplus. I sure you can figure out the end of result of that play.

This might have occured anyway, had ABX allowed the surplus aircraft to be "put" to DHL. Hete decided to do otherwise, and the surplus aircraft were cut up. I suspect this is part of the reason Hete is disliked by DP/DHL. He refused to play by their rules. I doubt his primary reason is concern for the employees of ABX, in particular the pilots. (Hete is reputed to have refered to us as scum sucking scorpions) Hete no doubt sees his actions as way to make more money for himself.

Alternatively, Astar could have attemped a buyout of ABX. With the ACMI invalid, this would have been a fairly cheap option. In the event the actual attempt was considerably more expensive, and failed. The price was not right, at least in Hete's mind. The public announcement of the "interest" is proof that talks had already failed. I view the announcement of "interest" as an attempt to drive ABX stock price down and make the offer more attractive.

Astar could also have sought additional lift from other sources. I'm not sure why this was not done, but suspect it has to do with cost. ABX's ACMI is cheap. It barely covers the costs. This option would also result in the whole loss of jobs at ABX.

The least likely result in my view is that the end result would be for DHL to be ordered to pay some indeterminate amount of money to the Astar pilots to settle the case.

As you can see, your (ALPA 017) actions potentially represent a tremendous threat to the careers and livelihood of ABX's pilots. I'm quite sure you are fully aware of this.

But, really your EBoard and our MEC should come to an agreement about what will happen if we were to win.

Our arriving at some sort of agreement would certainly be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, it will be a moot point unless the two carriers are merged. This may be the most likely resolution, but it is not ordained, thus the threat remains.

An asset sale in which the pilots were allowed to follow the equipment would accomplish the same thing providing a satisfactory agreement on seniority list merger were in hand. Again, not a sure thing.

My point is that what happens (i.e. merger, asset sale etc) is beyond the control of the two labor groups regardless of any agreement at which we may arrive. Any agreement must be backed up with the understaning that if Astar aquires ABX or its equipment then ABX pilots go with the aircraft, and an acceptable seniority merger is in place. Can you bind your management to this?
 
Last edited:
All good points. My point is that it is (and has been) possible to reduce the threat of our Section 1 grievance to you without giving up our rights.

Are you interested in continuing to flame back and forth about this for the next three years or are you interested in working this out and moving on?

Earl
 
All good points. My point is that it is (and has been) possible to reduce the threat of our Section 1 grievance to you without giving up our rights.

Are you interested in continuing to flame back and forth about this for the next three years or are you interested in working this out and moving on?

Earl

While some of my posts are undoubtably flames others are intended to convey the facts as seen from the ABX POV, which differs from those presented by some of your constituancy. Frankly, trying to tell me 017 wasn't trying to steal my job while the hand is still in the cookie jar is insulting and, in my view, deserves to be flamed particularly when accompanied by the (perhaps unintended) arrogance of some 017's posters.

Reduction of the threat might be helpful, but would probably not appease all of ABX's pilots. I cannot speak for all us, only myself, nor am I in a position to guide the conduct of 1224. Speaking for myself alone, I may forgive, depending on how things work out, but I will probably never forget.

BTW, you did not answer my question regarding DOB vs DOH.
 
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF
 
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF

AMF.....nice! You are the type of jerk that keeps this a fight.

SY and the CAT1 aircraft that brought you in.

:uzi:
 
No... Whats insulting is your premise that the DHL spinoff of ASTAR was a legitamate way to cancel the scope clause of ASTAR. Who do you work for ABX or DHL anyway? I'm grow weary of your demands for us to drop our scope clause grievance. Please stop BSing everyone. If you had your scope "cancelled" by the formation of a virtual shell company, You'd fight tooth and nail for vindication. You wouldn't drop it, don't expect us to. I haven't heard you vent yet on Hete and Donaway the real culprits, the people resposible for the ABX pilots position. The one who sold to DHL. If you do in fact work as an ABX crewmember, get on board and join forces with us. If not, shut your mouth and go it alone.
AMF
After that little outburst, now I bet you would like a jumpseat!
 
After that little outburst, now I bet you would like a jumpseat!

Probably no more so than the thousands of JS's ALPA represented airlines have given to teamsters over the years. The same ALPA ABX management and DHL are sueing.

A JS war cut's both ways, and unless both sides are content to ride on only their unions JS's to get to ILN, probably wouldn't be a prudent move, but if it comes to that, I guarantee you I can and do ride on ALPA all the time, and Teamsters less and less. Two year long term pass at CVG and crash pad car works just fine, and nobody can threaten to take it away cause they don't like my latest grievance.
 
All you girls (both sides) need to step back and not get your panties in a bunch. We, as in both groups, will never agree nor will either side convince the other that they are right. Let the courts decide it and be civilized to each other. This whole mess sucks for both sides.

Relax.
 
If you don't want our jumpseats let us know. I haven't, and won't ride ASTAR but I've given rides to many an ASTAR pilot. I'll continue to do so but we don't respond well to threats. But then if you have your way we won
 

Latest resources

Back
Top