Asiana 777 crashed on landing at SFO

[glasspilot1]

So I guess he didn't pass?

Boy, do I love the internet.

 

[glasspilot1]

Wow target speed is only 137k wow that impressive slow for a heavy...

"Old School" would have been adding 5 knots for the wife and kids. I guess they don't do that anymore.

 

[Capn Butthead]

I've never flown the 777 only the 737...but with no auto land I'm assuming at some point they had to turn the auto throttles off....which if they are trained to primarily used auto land (I'm making that assumption based on 5 friends who fly for other Asian carriers) I wonder how behind they were behind the aircraft. It seems to me that if you're so used to being hooked up to automation that you forget basic airmanship. I've seen it at my airline and we just started to use it! Combined with being new in the aircraft, no autoland (possibly no auto throttles?) being high on approach (normal for sfo) Too me, dropping to 107kts is so extreme....as if they were expecting the plane to fix it. The CVR will be intersting to see how crm was and who if any spoke up.

 

[densoo]

The CVR will be intersting to see how crm was and who if any spoke up.

NTSB Sunday brief,

From the NTSB briefing just help, data pulled from the CVR and FDR show they were "significantly" below target speed of 137 knots, there was no call regarding low airspeed until 7 seconds prior to impact, they got the stick shaker 4 seconds prior, and go-around was called 1.5 seconds prior to impact. FDR shows engines responded normally.

 

[Capn Butthead]

That's amazing to me that it went that long and got that slow before someone spoke up....I think all of us have made mistakes before...lord knows that I have. And my fellow aviator gladly corrected me quickly as I would do for him...then I'd buy him a beer later! I wonder how much the culture of hierarchy will play into the crm of this situation. I think it's safe to say we can all learn from this.

 

[Traderd]

I've never flown the 777 only the 737...but with no auto land I'm assuming at some point they had to turn the auto throttles off....which if they are trained to primarily used auto land (I'm making that assumption based on 5 friends who fly for other Asian carriers) I wonder how behind they were behind the aircraft. It seems to me that if you're so used to being hooked up to automation that you forget basic airmanship. I've seen it at my airline and we just started to use it! Combined with being new in the aircraft, no autoland (possibly no auto throttles?) being high on approach (normal for sfo) Too me, dropping to 107kts is so extreme....as if they were expecting the plane to fix it. The CVR will be intersting to see how crm was and who if any spoke up.

Speculation on automation's (and A/T) role from PPRuNe:

http://www.pprune.org/7926629-post315.html

"The 777 can catch you out with with what is known as the "FLCH trap."

When you are above the glide slope and need to get down in a hurry Flight Level Change (FLCH) is a useful mode to use. Normally you transfer to another mode like glideslope or vertical speed, or you switch off the flight directors.

However in this situation the glideslope was off the air so the ILS would not have ben selected or armed. If the flight directors were left on and the plane was descending at a high rate in FLCH the autothrottle would have been inhibited and would not have put on power so the thrust levers would have stayed at idle.

If the Asiana was a bit high (quite normal for SFO) then regained the visual glideslope, the rate of descent would have decreased and the speed would have started slowly reducing but with the thrust levers staying at idle the 777 would now be in the same situation as the Turkish 737 at AMS, ie speed decreasing below Vref and not being noticed.

The 777 has autothrottle wake up, ie when the aircraft approaches a stall the power comes on automatically to almost full power. This gives pilots great confidence however autothrottle wake up is inhibited in FLCH.

So 777 pilots will be looking at this scenario and wondering if Asiana were in FLCH with flight directors on, too high, stabilised late and did not notice they were still in FLCH and that the autothrottle was not keeping the speed to Vref plus 5 untl too late.

Just a theory but I think it far more likely than engine failure, radalt failure or autothrottle failure and I suspect when the events are unravelled this will be what has happend."

 

[Capn Butthead]

Thank you for the post from PPrune...I'm not on there....

I guess I just shake my head and ask why wouldn't you just turn the auto throttles off and fly it....but that's just me I guess. Especially being on IOE how could the check airman let it get that far.

 

[inline]

CNN's coverage yesterday was terrible! Where do they find these supposed "experts". And using the eyewitness statements as facts-"the aircraft cartwheeled down the runway several times!" wow.

Being in airport terminals one is subjected to CNN and no matter where you go you can't quite get away from the audio. You. Cannot. Get. Away. This is torture listening to all those leftwing gas bags.

 

[AeroDMB]

With the speed window was open, they had set the ref speed and the A/T should be on that speed...the 777 has a great A/T system, auto land or not. now if they held back the thrust levers manually, and not realize their speed dropping off, then that is a concern as well. Im not sure about the inhibiting of the wake up protection, i would have to look in my manual. On the 777, I can't think of a time we would turn the A/T off except for terrain avoidance procedure.

 

[Capn Butthead]

Stupid question about the 777 then. If you aren't on an autoland then do you have to turn the auto throttles off before touchdown or do they still have an auto retard before touchdown based on radar altimeter? In other words if they are doing vertical speed, level change, or a GPS would you leave the auto throttles on the entire time or do you have to disconnect them before touchdown. We don't use autoland...we only use the HUD for CAT III....and we have to disconnect auto throttles before landing (I know that's specific to our airline)