ASA Says Pilots' Demands Are Lofty

[Flyer1015]

ASA Says Pilots' Demands Are Lofty

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/343421/asa_says_pilots_demands_are_lofty/index.html?source=r_technology

By Paul Beebe, The Salt Lake Tribune

Dec. 28--As contract talks between Atlantic Southeast Airlines and its pilots resume today, the company is taking some responsibility for three years of fruitless negotiations, but says pilots need to scale back their "expensive" proposals before a new pact is possible.

In a letter to pilots last week, ASA President Bryan LaBrecque said the pilots union is seeking contract provisions the airline can't afford since it was bought by SkyWest Inc. and is no longer part of bankrupt Delta Air Lines. He didn't provide details.

"With the Delta bankruptcy and our sale to SkyWest, the entire premise for our business shifted," said LaBrecque, who became president and chief operating officer after St. George-based SkyWest bought ASA in September.

"We no longer enjoy the benefits of being owned by Delta when we could expect to continue our Delta Connection business and continue growing just because of that relationship."

When SkyWest bought ASA, Delta insisted on a different Delta Connection agreement that included non-negotiable cost restrictions that could lead Delta to cancel the agreement if they aren't met, LaBrecque said.

"Agreeing to a pilot contract that doesn't fit inside that financial framework or allow us to reach operational targets would quickly leave us uncompetitive with an uncertain future."

ASA and its 1,700 pilots have been in negotiations since September 2002, when the pilots' contract became amendable. In November, frustrated negotiators for the Air Line Pilots Association voted to express no confidence in the senior managers of the Atlanta-based airline.

*****************************************************


So there you have it, it's all the pilots' fault !

 

[wms]

Say SKW/ASA doesn't fit DAL's cost box. How does DAL replace 1200 daily departures (according to the SKW,inc web site)? And tell me, how is it bad for ASA that we were sold by a BK company run by poor mgmt to a good company run by good people? I'm just hoping JA to lives up to his good reputation.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Maybe JA will dump BL in the river along with that Bull Sh*t offer. I'd like to see what SKYW pilots have now and how old their agreement is. From what I've heard on the VARS, I don't like at all. Salaries being cut is not the save all answer to the companies problems. If BL thinks the pilot are hard to deal with now, just wait.

 

[gkrangers]

Are the pilots asking for more, or just wanting to keep what they currently have with no concessions?

 

[skystud25]

JA told the pilots in a differences class a friend of mine was in awhile back that in 5 years SKW had to be at least the second lowest paid code-share partner DL had or the long-term agreement SKW and Delta made as part of the ASA sale would potentially be voided. With Mesa in Delta's bed, that doesn't leave much wiggle room. With Comair probably accepting a contract that is potentially less lucrative than SKW's, and if all this is true, you can see their reluctance to offer the SKW pilots any more than 1.2% or ASA anything more that isn't no-cost. No flame, that's just what I heard.

 

[gkrangers]

So if it comes down to Mesa and CMR..SKW and ASA will have to get lower than CMR ?

Holy crap.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Correct me if I'm remembering wrong but CMR's proposal was SKW + 1%. We are already lower than SKW and CMR on the 50 and lower on the 70 than CMR. I have heard a few of us at ASA say that keeping the pay we have + profit sharing + cost of living bumps would be ok, but our QOL improvements have to improve. Not gonna budge on those. The company can bitch all they want that its costly but that's crap. It's that they don't want to give up the control they have over our lives and the ability to fix the screw ups and inefficiencies that our company creates. I am blaming the top on down for the problems of inefficiency not just scheduling and planning. We have a 3 day trip that is blocked to just over 3 hours of flying and the rest sitting and being unproductive and inefficient. Yet they always have the "it's Delta's fault for changing the schedules" excuse. I'm tired of the excuses. Like my dad always said "excuses are like A$$holes, everyone's got one and they all stink".

They expect us to change and accept what they propose so they don't have to change. I'm not willing to be the end all be all to their problems.

 

[Crash Pad]

Ok here is the piece I have never understood about Unions. How can the ASA pilot group look around and see: ACA, Air Wisconsin, Comair, and now Coex all get great contracts and then get replaced and think it wont happen to them?
1. They can't replace the departures. Yes they can. Almost overnight with all the excess DCI capacity.
2. We deserve a fair contract. Why? Because it has been four years since the last one? Because you've negotiated for a while? Because "you've waited long enough"... ASA is not special and if you make yourself special with say an industry leading contract they will take you to the woodshed.
3. Stop Drinking the management Kool-aid. Here is the track record I've seen from Unions. Delta, United, NWA Mechanic, ACA, AirWis, CoEX... All used the same argument to get a great contract which management said was too expensive. In all those cases management turned out to be correct and the pilots have suffered in the long term. CAL had a crap contract but hey guess who is hiring?
If someone can resonably answer those questions I'll get off the Kool-Aid and come on board for the big win.
If I were negotiating I would take an exact replica of the Skywest contract and make it my proposal. I know the 70 guys will take a 2 dollar pay cut. The vast majority of the company is on the 50... they get a pay raise... plus profit sharing. If you are so confident that the company is making billions then your profit sharing check should be fat.

 

[Crash Pad]

If anyone brings up Horizon I will vomit. Nice contract with a 7-8 year upgrade. Guess what if you upgrade in 5 years you will make more than horizon. I've heard of 15 year captains on reserve... Sweet and by sweet I mean totally awesome! If only I could get lucky enough to work in those conditions.

 

[FL990]

Ok here is the piece I have never understood about Unions. How can the ASA pilot group look around and see: ACA, Air Wisconsin, Comair, and now Coex all get great contracts and then get replaced and think it wont happen to them?
1. They can't replace the departures. Yes they can. Almost overnight with all the excess DCI capacity.
2. We deserve a fair contract. Why? Because it has been four years since the last one? Because you've negotiated for a while? Because "you've waited long enough"... ASA is not special and if you make yourself special with say an industry leading contract they will take you to the woodshed.
3. Stop Drinking the management Kool-aid. Here is the track record I've seen from Unions. Delta, United, NWA Mechanic, ACA, AirWis, CoEX... All used the same argument to get a great contract which management said was too expensive. In all those cases management turned out to be correct and the pilots have suffered in the long term. CAL had a crap contract but hey guess who is hiring?
If someone can resonably answer those questions I'll get off the Kool-Aid and come on board for the big win.
If I were negotiating I would take an exact replica of the Skywest contract and make it my proposal. I know the 70 guys will take a 2 dollar pay cut. The vast majority of the company is on the 50... they get a pay raise... plus profit sharing. If you are so confident that the company is making billions then your profit sharing check should be fat.

OK, look at what you are saying. you have just named a large number of airlines here. Most of us can find other jobs and i think that we have to look at it and say "is it worth it anymore." We can't live on this pay and everytime we accept another concession and do this job for less than adaquate compesation, we are replacing the very jobs that we are slaving for. WE HAVE TO STOP DOING THIS!! What are YOUR plans. To stay here get your time and then move to a major. There won't be any "major" jobs if we keep trying to undercut each other. WE WILL BE THOSE JOBS. The income that I make now is easily replaced with most jobs.

If management is telling the truth and they can't afford to pay us liveable wages to do this job, then these companies don't deserve to be in business. SHUT'M down and move on.

I can't believe I am saying this. I would have never thought that 3 or 4 years ago but I am tired of the whipsaw and race to the bottom.

 

[Crash Pad]

OK, look at what you are saying. you have just named a large number of airlines here. Most of us can find other jobs and i think that we have to look at it and say "is it worth it anymore." We can't live on this pay and everytime we accept another concession and do this job for less than adaquate compesation, we are replacing the very jobs that we are slaving for. WE HAVE TO STOP DOING THIS!! What are YOUR plans. To stay here get your time and then move to a major. There won't be any "major" jobs if we keep trying to undercut each other. WE WILL BE THOSE JOBS. The income that I make now is easily replaced with most jobs.

First some facts. We can't get other jobs. We could get a job with MESA CHQ, etc... If you could go to FedEX, SWA, UPS, or AirTran... smart money says you should have already left. My wife was job hunting in Atlanta. Not an idiot Masters degree and work experience. She is making less than me without 401K and some other bennies... So this job market we can all jump into and easily replace this crap one with doesn't exist.
What am I doing? I can see that the American aviation market has matured. I am looking overseas... If I have to stay here I will get my time and send my resume to someone with a higher payscale. I have looked at airline pilot central and there are companies out there that pay more than ASA. There are also a lot that pay less.
An industry leading contract that leads to less growth and a 10 year upgrade significantly slows me down.
The way I see it the industry is total sh!t right now. We are not going to change it. Give me skywests contract and I'm good to go.

 

[FL990]

CrashPad, you are operating under the assumption that there will be massive amounts of hiring at the major level in 3 or so years. THINK AGAIN. Every time we take a cut, we replace one of those better paying jobs. Every time we get 2 or 3 RJ's, we replace a 757 job. Attrition alone won't supply enough vacancies. Oh they will be hiring in about 6 years or so...enough to fill retirements. BY THEN, YOU WILL BE IN A POT OF 12000 OTHER PILOTS THAT QUALIFY FOR THE 2000 JOBS. How do you like those odds??

Furthermore, when do the cuts stop. We take a cut...who do you think they will go to next...especially if we are below SKYWEST airlines...they will go to them. Then when they take a cut, they will come back to us for more the next go around. Not necessarily with a conventional concession, but every year we go without a cost of living increase in pay, we take an effective pay cut.

And like I said in my other thread, they will keep offering bigger and bigger planes. Make no mistake about it, 100 seat+ offers are coming. And they will want us to do it for the same wage as we make now. And if we say yes, we will once again be shooting our long term futures in the foot. you say that the industry is in the toilet right now, insinuating that it will eventually get better for us...It never will as long as there are those who think as you do...and there always will be. I thought like that several years ago as well. I made the same arguments that you do now. THERE will always be a "you". That is not a cutdown man...sorry to sound like a jerk. I am just saying that if we continue to work for less and less with the dilusion of pay my dues and get the dream job, we are cutting our legs out from under us because the dream job will be replaced by this nightmare!!

 

[SLUF4]

I like how in the new memo on E-docs it says we need growth or the company will fail. I guess management fails to realize that they need us PILOTS or the company will fail (I don't think Willy has his ATP). This new proposal is a slap in the face.

 

[Flyer1015]

SkyWest Inc will be the leaseholder of the ASA passenger gates in ATL. It would be difficult for Delta to replace them with another carrier in ATL because gates are a limited resource, and are now controlled by Skywest Inc.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

If anyone brings up Horizon I will vomit. Nice contract with a 7-8 year upgrade. Guess what if you upgrade in 5 years you will make more than horizon. I've heard of 15 year captains on reserve... Sweet and by sweet I mean totally awesome! If only I could get lucky enough to work in those conditions.

Ahem....

"Horizon"

Commence vomiting, b!tch.

 

[sweptback]

SkyWest Inc will be the leaseholder of the ASA passenger gates in ATL. It would be difficult for Delta to replace them with another carrier in ATL because gates are a limited resource, and are now controlled by Skywest Inc.

EXACTLY! This is what people don't realize. We have enough leverage to get this done, don't let anybody talk you out of it.

 

[WhatRUSmokinGL?]

Why is it that SW can afford to pay the highest rate for their equipment and yet the company still plans on growing ad infinitim? Yeah the fuel hedges help but not all the way, so come up with another excuse. Yes I know that ASA is not in competition directly with SW but it shows that there are mngt teams that are competent(sp?) and what effect it has on the business. Remember post 9/11 when everyone was f-loing? SW honored a former promise and gave raises right? That kinda of action buys employee loyalty that goes a long way in keeping customers happy and coming back. Would you folks at ASA expect anything from the mngt peeps?

Why should pilots at ASA, Delta, etc. have to subsidize both the american publics travel pleasure and the poor management skills of their respective management teams? And who says that ASA really *needs* concessions? Maybe the mngt. folks are just trying to see how much they can squeeze from the pilot group.

Maybe all the mngt. folks everywhere know that their time of preferential treatment from the NMB will cease at the end of this presidential administration so they had better get what they can while the gettin' is good. I have been an 'R' for my entire life but next election sorta looks like the 'D's will be back in. Maybe I'm wrong.

BTW Thanks for illegitimately stretchin' the RLA to us, John McCain, U Frickin DORK! I Wonder how much jing/$ that got him?

'Deserving a contract' is a Non sequitur. You get what you negotiate. Plain and simple. Think about it, ASA just got a new guy at the helm. His retirement plan hinges on this contract. If he gets a good deal for SKW, all he has to do is keep the ship semi- on course then it's sailin' in the caribean for the rest of his life with skip. He really couldn't care less what the impact is on your life or anyone else. He has worked to get to this point because he knows that it's only a 3-5 year road that ends in a virtual lottery ticket retirement. So it becomes a simple emotionless business deal. A simple lie here or a little unethical act there... SO WHAT. He'll be gone by 2010. It is business, nothing personal...... Except for you and the next guy/girl. You are in the same style of environmrent when you negotiate for a vehicle.. I had one dealer let me walk out of the office when I said I'd pay retail. He acted like I wanted his daughter. The next dealership said great and it was the exact same car/price. The first dude just gambled and lost. It's the same here.

I think our biggest weakness here is that from day one of our training, way back when, we have been conditioned to do the 'right' thing. We are in a (pretty much) self-policing field that requires a lot of dicipline. You know, do the right thing even if no one is watching....work hard, show up ready to work etc, do your best to make up for the crappy airserve contractor that they won't fire because of $$$$. Who cares if somebody's GrandMa gets stuck on a plane for 30 minutes and missed a flight? Nobody from mngt has to stand there and witness this.

We are dealing with businessmen. They show up unprepared, stall for 3+ years etc because it is what is best for them. Not because it is ethical and the right thing to do. They do it because it is more profitable for them. As long as it's legal (supported by the NMB) it's just business. e.g. Where we ASA pilots were shocked,insulted,upset,peeved,torqued at mngt's first proposal in 3+ years, they(mngt) sees it as a strategic/tactical move to get our expectations low and maybe, just maybe it'll be taken. Then they will scream BK, CHTQA,MESA,CMR ETC and finally "settle" on a contract that is less than labor wanted. And walk away wondering when they should spend the retirement earnings.

Why hasn't there been a call for an 8% reduction er... uh, I mean "CORRECTION" in the COO's salary?

Just my ramblings....


BTW.... HORIZON!!! hehe

AND WHERE IS THE GENERAL???? I miss his input.

 

[scarlet]

Crash pad--how long have you been in the industry...Keep drinking the company juice and go work for USair...There you can work some days for FREE...

All those Airline MANGT teams are just plain DUMB!!!! People running the airlines that have never held a job in the industry but mangt. If one airline takes a pay cut and it sticks --GUESS WHAT---well hope you can figure it out,, they all jump on board!!!! Even Airtran wants pay cuts now, because everyone else is doing it.

HOW about raising the airfares and running a business than trying to fix the companies problems with pay cuts--that is their business plan-take care of the employees and they will take care of the customer--Gordon Bethune--it works trust me--I was there for 9 years

Horizon--their employees are happy so they do their jobs!! lets see if we don't pay our pilots horizon's pay 4.00 an hour for every hour our pilots work how much money do we save? ummhhh but if our pilots take mesa pay we reall save...WOW

 

[scarlet]

yeah is everyone in the company taking 8-10% pay cut??

Answer from SKYWEST????

 

[HughBeamont]

When in jeopardy, plan to negotiate, see what they say, possibly reciprocate, and if that doesn't fly, burn the place, figuratively of course, to the Fricking ground. Burn, baby bury, regional inferno, regional inferno.....

I think we're all going to know that anthem soon.

 

[Tomct]

Why do these people think that ASA pilots are asking for a HUGE contract? I don't see a 3-5 percent pay raise and Numerouse QOL issues HUGE. I call that "Cost of Living!" You know, gas prices, food, heat etc. Oh yeah, I forgot, that 70-100,000 dollars for flying and my 4 year degree that I needed so badly to go to the majors. Have some respect for yourselves. It is time to make a stand. Draw a line in the Sand and don't cross it! Stike Baby!

 

[sweptback]

I don't expect to get more than about a 3-5% raise, but I will vote NO on anything less than the inflation percentage (right now about 4%). Anything less is a paycut.

Technically we should have gotten a 3-4% bump every year since 2002, which will make a nice retro pay check.

I agree that this contract is more about QOL issues and tightening up the lax wording in the old one. Pay rates can be saved for another day.

 

[psysix]

From an ASA pilot on JC forums.....

atrdriver



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: The company wants to eliminate premium pay (underblock), which is often the only way to make any money around here. They want to drop DH pay to 50%. I don't really care about the payrates

 

[rjcap]

I don't expect to get more than about a 3-5% raise, but I will vote NO on anything less than the inflation percentage (right now about 4%). Anything less is a paycut.

Technically we should have gotten a 3-4% bump every year since 2002, which will make a nice retro pay check.

I agree that this contract is more about QOL issues and tightening up the lax wording in the old one. Pay rates can be saved for another day.

Trip and Duty Rigs !!!!!!!

Trip and Duty Rigs !!!!!!!


This is where you protect yourself from these ridiculous 3 day trips with 3 block hours.

 

[79%N1]

Trip and Duty Rigs !!!!!!!

Trip and Duty Rigs !!!!!!!


This is where you protect yourself from these ridiculous 3 day trips with 3 block hours.

CAN I GET AN AMEN!

 

[Illinois]

I do not see Skywest Inc. giving either pilot group retro pay. We (Skyw) have been working under an expired pay agreement for over a year, and SGU doesn't even want to offer the 1.2% raise we voted down a couple months ago.

 

[atrdriver]

From an ASA pilot on JC forums.....

atrdriver



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 134
Location: Atlanta, GA
http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/templates/subSilver/images/icon_minipost_new.gifPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: http://www.clear-and-a-million.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif The company wants to eliminate premium pay (underblock), which is often the only way to make any money around here. They want to drop DH pay to 50%. I don't really care about the payrates

Hey bozo. If you are going to quote me then do it right. I stated that premium pay and DH pay, plus trip and duty rigs are more important to me than the pay rates. Am I willing to take a pay cut? No I'm not. And that is what elimination of premium pay and 50% DH pay would be. Get a life, and learn to read next time.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I like how in the new memo on E-docs it says we need growth or the company will fail.

That is probably a true statement. Airlines like our keep their costs low by getting new crews and equipment to reduce overall seniority and the age (maintenance costs) of their fleet. Further, the larger the operation the less each unit has to contribute to support the fixed costs of the business.

But then what?

Go Around: You make some really excellent points.

 

[atrdriver]

Fins, that is a true statement. But SKY bought us knowing that we were in negotiations, and if they were not aware of what our negotiation position before buying us then that's their problem. They were the purchaser, and it was their responsibility to know what they were getting into. Sorry, but I don't feel too bad for their plight. I know that I haven't gotten anything more than a longecity raise in 3 years, and now they want to eliminate premium and knock DH back to 50%? I don't think so. I have said from the outset that we weren't going to get too much in the way of a pay increase, but I'm certainly not going to sit back and watch them take away what we have already fought for.

 

[shamrock]

OK, I have what might be a simple question to everyone but I'd just like some clarification.

What exactly are we talking about with regards to eliminating premium? I'm clear on what premium is, but how will things change? I do naps once in a while and shoot for premium because it's the only way to make money. That pay on top of guarantee would go away if I understand correctly. Now if I do a normal trip blocked to 20 hours but end up early on several legs and fly only 18, what will I get paid for? Will I lose the 2 hours underblock as well?

I'm not as dumb as I look, I swear. Just trying to understand how it all would work.