ASA parking planes???

[Speedtape]

(If you care about the pilot group at ASA, and if you truly believe that I'm wrong on this, why not give me a reason as to why you feel that I've misunderstood? Would that not be a better thing to do?)

Cool. You disagree with the logic of my post?

Explain where I was wrong. Explain where there was a lack of truth.

It's not just me that feels this way: every FO (that I've spoken with) that actually read the algebraic formula of the distribution feels this way.
Every pilot I have spoken with said they didn't vote for the contract, yet it passed by a high percentage. The formula was fair and followed patterns at other airlines. When were you hired? What did you think you deserved?

Captains, especially senior captains, made far more from the signing bonus than FOs. Fair? Well, for the vast majority of the pilot group at ASA, it depends on how many stripes you have on your shoulders.
When were you hired? That will shed some light on the subject.

My point here is that a precedent has been shown in which those that have will do what they feel they can to not only protect what they have, but to get more. In my example, it was the signing bonus distribution. Down the road, I could easily see an environment in which the senior captains could aquiesce to the requests of management to sell out the junior FOs with regards to furloughs.
There were two junior pilots on the MEC. I heard that the most Junior guy developed the formula. If that is true, then how can you blame the senior pilots. Your pay was protected at 60% of Captain pay. The rest of the regional industry is something far less. Senior Captains supported this position in the last contract and the current one. Were they looking out for themselves, only, in doing that? I doubt anyone will be sold down the river, as you suggest. However, the system is based on seniority, just like the rest of the US carriers. Last in, first out is the protocol in a reduction--industry standard.

Again, this is not unique to ASA. Also, I'm not being judgmental, I'm simply stating the factual history and a hypothetical future. Contract or not, if its time to furlough at ASA, it will happen.
I doubt there will be furloughs and hope there will be no furloughs. There is a no-furlough provision that should protect everyone here at contract signing. However, the standard procedure in the industry is reverse seniority when it comes to reduction. Did you have a different understanding of that when you took the job?

It's my feeling that having an idea of what the future might hold is beneficial in the present. Disagree?

Can you pick lottery numbers? Being prepared, is always a good plan. The way things are going, we could all be looking at the street. For now, don't go out an buy big ticket items--a good position whether you are senior or junior.

 

[JumpersAway]

No doubt the winds of change are upon us, question is, how bad will it get before something is done about it?

I am curious to know, however, how Europe has been dealing with this situation for as long as it has- does British Airways, KLM, Air France, etc get a government influx or subsidy? I'm under the impression that they don't.

Who would have thought ASA would be well possitioned for anything two years ago....kinda makes me laugh.

 

[1080P]

Who would have thought ASA would be well possitioned for anything two years ago....kinda makes me laugh.

I completely agree, it's a nice change of pace for once.

 

[CFI2766]

Can you pick lottery numbers? Being prepared, is always a good plan. The way things are going, we could all be looking at the street. For now, don't go out an buy big ticket items--a good position whether you are senior or junior.

First off, Thanks for the open, frank discussion. Even though I've disagreed with your logic from time to time, I respect your, whoever you are, ability to discuss without flaming in this thread.

The genus of my post was the idea that there would be no furloughs at ASA. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, and that there is a positive outcome to the current situation; I doubt it. I'm not normally too bearish about our side of the industry, but all indications are that all of the regionals will be dramatically different this time next year.

It's a disservice to (young/junior) FOs to tell them that their job is safe because of a no-furlough clause in the most current contract.

Clearly, Last in, First out, is the way it should work. I'm not advocating otherwise.

 

[asayankee]

How do you find COMA lines on Flica.....i tried a search but couldn't find them

 

[JoeMerchant]

Regarding the shuffling of SkyWesters over to do more Delta flying: a good source has told me that the new Delta contract (if it passes) will restrict any future growth/DCI portfolio flying to Union only carriers. Sorry SkyWest- you had your shot........

Absolutely NOT true. I have a copy of the entire agreement and it says nothing of the sort....I will send you a copy of the agreement if you would like....

Even if it did say this.....Mesa would be able to get furture growth, while Skywest would not....Which would you rather have it? I would rather see Skywest get it than Mesa.....Union membership doesn't really mean squat.....Union members can undercut with the best of them......

 

[McNugent]

How do you find COMA lines on Flica.....i tried a search but couldn't find them

Look down at the bottom where your final schedule is. Above that is the "Awards" and the next one up is the COMA bid. It opens August 1st.

 

[Medeco]

Absolutely NOT true. I have a copy of the entire agreement and it says nothing of the sort....I will send you a copy of the agreement if you would like....

I'm curious, do you have a copy of the agreement that the Delta pilots did with DAL management back when the merger was announced, or do you have something new related to SLI that is supposed to be hammered out soon?

Medeco

 

[JumpersAway]

Joe, I understand what you are saying regarding Mesa, but I am looking at what SkyWest Inc could use/not use for a whipsaw. I am looking at it from a perspective of United and SkyWest. If United liquidated (and I'm not saying they are, or won't) it would keep 3000 non union SkyWesters from bumping 1700 union pilots out of ASA's flying in Atlanta.

If this is true, it effectively ends any sort of hope for a SkyWest/ASA whipsaw. I talked to a guy at SkyWest that was telling me he wan't worried about United, because if anything happened to them, SkyWest pilots would just replace ASA.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm curious, do you have a copy of the agreement that the Delta pilots did with DAL management back when the merger was announced, or do you have something new related to SLI that is supposed to be hammered out soon?

Medeco

I have a copy of the TA that is being voted on by the DAL and NWA pilots....If anyone wants a copy send me a PM....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, I understand what you are saying regarding Mesa, but I am looking at what SkyWest Inc could use/not use for a whipsaw. I am looking at it from a perspective of United and SkyWest. If United liquidated (and I'm not saying they are, or won't) it would keep 3000 non union SkyWesters from bumping 1700 union pilots out of ASA's flying in Atlanta.

If this is true, it effectively ends any sort of hope for a SkyWest/ASA whipsaw. I talked to a guy at SkyWest that was telling me he wan't worried about United, because if anything happened to them, SkyWest pilots would just replace ASA.....

1. I have a copy of the agreement and it doesn't say anything about limiting flying to "union" carriers.....

2. Unless we get a single list, we need to worry about whipsaw....

3. We need to WORK WITH Skywest right now....It is time to circle the wagons and join with our fellow Skywest pilots.....Don't look to ALPA to save us....

4. Jerry can give us more job protection than ALPA can.....

 

[Speedtape]

1. I have a copy of the agreement and it doesn't say anything about limiting flying to "union" carriers.....

2. Unless we get a single list, we need to worry about whipsaw....

3. We need to WORK WITH Skywest right now....It is time to circle the wagons and join with our fellow Skywest pilots.....Don't look to ALPA to save us....

4. Jerry can give us more job protection than ALPA can.....

2. It does not appear that anyone but you wants a single list.

3. We are working with Skywest--D-0! How should we join with our fellow Skywest pilots? They don't have any organizational structure that is not management controlled. Maybe, we could give them a 15 year contract like Eagle gave their mangagement--with ALPA's help!

4. Jerry COULD give us more job protection than ALPA can, but he want give us anymore than what's in the contract.

 

[CFI2766]

2. It does not appear that anyone but you wants a single list.

If this is a true statement, that is, no one wants a single list, why not? I don't see the logic in two separate pilot groups from the standpoint of the best interests of the pilot group as a whole. Wouldn't one pilot group, doing all the things necessary for D-0 and other operational paramaters well, be better than two pilot groups competing against each other? Seems like when we compete against each other, the only one that wins are the folks in the managerial suite.



3. We are working with Skywest--D-0! How should we join with our fellow Skywest pilots? They don't have any organizational structure that is not management controlled. Maybe, we could give them a 15 year contract like Eagle gave their mangagement--with ALPA's help!


What's the point in trying to be antagonistic towards the SKYW guys? Is there some forward looking logic here, or are you still upset that they chose not to vote in ALPA? You were joking about the 15 year contract/Eagle reference, right?

Personally, I think that having ALPA, warts and all, is far better than not having ALPA. However, their pilot group does not see it that way. Analogy: If I were a used car salesman (I might be by this spring the way things are going...), and a customer chose not to buy my car, I wouldn't hope that that customer would walk everywhere they need to go for the rest of their life. No, I'd still see that person as a customer and I'd look at my sales technique to see where I went wrong. Do ya' think maybe y'all should try that?


4. Jerry COULD give us more job protection than ALPA can, but he want give us anymore than what's in the contract.

Well, no, why should he? His fiduciary responsibility is to the shareholders of his company. Indirectly, from what I've seen at ASA over the last few months, anyways, he seems to understand that taking care of the employees who create the revenue is a good way of taking care of the people who own the stock. (This could change in a heartbeat, I know.)

It's up to us as employees to give SKYW a positive return on their investment in our most recent contract. Frankly, ever since the RLA became a part of our lives, the best/only job protection we have is to make ourselves the best pilot group, frankly, for the money, available.

 

[CFI2766]

You just proved your lack of ability for comprehensive thinking.

Medeco

Oh yeah poopy-pants? Your Schwinn has training wheels!

See, that was mature, wasn't it?

 

[McNugent]

If this is true, it effectively ends any sort of hope for a SkyWest/ASA whipsaw. I talked to a guy at SkyWest that was telling me he wan't worried about United, because if anything happened to them, SkyWest pilots would just replace ASA.....

Tell them to read Section 1 F. and G. of our contract. They can't just move in and take over overnight like I'm sure they'd love to.

http://asacontract2007.alpa.org/Contract_pdf_docs/2008 0229 ASA Contract - Final with links.pdf

 

[Speedtape]

Well, no, why should he? His fiduciary responsibility is to the shareholders of his company. Indirectly, from what I've seen at ASA over the last few months, anyways, he seems to understand that taking care of the employees who create the revenue is a good way of taking care of the people who own the stock. (This could change in a heartbeat, I know.)

It's up to us as employees to give SKYW a positive return on their investment in our most recent contract. Frankly, ever since the RLA became a part of our lives, the best/only job protection we have is to make ourselves the best pilot group, frankly, for the money, available.

Retort to the Retort (using the same number system):

2. Having one seniority list COULD be in our (Skywest's and ASA's) best interest. However, there is very little interest by the Skywest pilot group. By the same token, there is probably not even close to a majority of ASA pilots who desire one list. And finally, the CEO of Inc. has no desire to attempt one list. My points will be simple regarding each party, but not complete. Skywest pilots see an advantage to staying non-ALPA (overwhelmingly.) Part of the reason, is that a majority do not want one list and saw ALPA as a threat to keeping one list--theirs! They are leveraging their non-unionism to compete against us to get growth--from Inc. The plan works quite well.

Secondly, most ASA pilots do not want one list. They only have to look at USAir/AmericaWest and Delta/Northwest to confirm their position. The unknown and the pain to get gain
is enough of a reason--with uncertainty of reward not guaranteed.

The CEO and corporate vision is to maintain 2 certificates--for liability and financial reasons. Although that concept does not mean that one list could still not occur, it takes 2 willing partners (both pilot groups) and an Officiator (MGMT) to consumate the marriage. Everyone has their own interests to protect, and the safer position is to maintain status quo.

Keeping 2 separate companies also gives the advantage of selling off or selling back one of the Companies, should the opportunity or the need arise.

3. I am not sure where you get the "antagonizing Skywest pilots" idea. I have made no such statement or have that predjudice. The Skywest pilots have to do what is in their best interest. Similarly, the ASA pilots have to do the same. Yes, we are in competition by the very nature of our two lists. As of today and in the short past, we are a threat to each other. Maybe, someday, that will not be the case.

In regard to what has happened in the last 7 months, credit goes to three parties. First, there is the installation of Skywest MGMT at ASA, which has established the processes and tools we need to do our job. No surprise there, Skywest has a proven track record in these areas.

Secondly, our employees have risen to the challenge and used the tools and processes to bring about this change. The employees at this company have always been untapped and in many areas, have always succeeded despite having NO MGMT! There really wasn't any miracles performed, just better managment of all available resources. Yes, as a result, morale has risen and the work and challenges continue and always will--and our employees will meet the challenges and excel in performance. It wasn't Rocket Science.

Finally, credit also goes to our mainline partner for taking over the ramp and improving the operation. In reality, this is a major reason that we have any opportunity to succeed.

 

[HoserASA]

In regard to what has happened in the last 7 months, First, there is the installation of Skywest MGMT at ASA,
Secondly, our employees have risen to the challenge
Finally, credit also goes to our mainline partner for taking over the ramp and improving the operation.

Disagree! Getting a contract is the primary reason for our recent success.

SKYW mgt didn't really do a thing to change things here for two years or so until BH arrived. So far the pilot group is buying what he's selling. Let's hope it stays that way.

DAL taking over the ramp? Hmmm, I'd have to say yes if it weren't for concourse D and E not being on the same page as concourse C. Working out of D is nothing like A or B, nor C for that matter. Remember, DAL owned us for years and did nothing to change things here, except stick us with incompetent mgt such as SB and BL.

Hoser
Roll Tide!

 

[Speedtape]

Disagree! Getting a contract is the primary reason for our recent success.

Nothing would have improved until the contract was settled--agreed. However, since the contract, things have improved because of the change in processes and leadership. Had B.L. and his cast of characters remained, would the same results have occurred?

SKYW mgt didn't really do a thing to change things here for two years or so until BH arrived. So far the pilot group is buying what he's selling. Let's hope it stays that way.

This is true, but they didn't do anything for at least two reasons. As you so clearly stated, we didn't have a contract. Also, they needed time to assess what the real problem was. They got a hint when they visited the crew lounge. As you know, they are still cleaning house, and there probably is one or more left to go. The pilot group is buying into the program because they are seeing MGMT followthrough and results. In addition, the pilots like the MGMT flush and can believe that things are really changing.

DAL taking over the ramp? Hmmm, I'd have to say yes if it weren't for concourse D and E not being on the same page as concourse C. Working out of D is nothing like A or B, nor C for that matter. Remember, DAL owned us for years and did nothing to change things here, except stick us with incompetent mgt such as SB and BL.

There has been change and improvements on all concourses. Is it perfect, yet? Let's just say it is a work in progress! However, no one can say that it's not better most of the time today, as compared with even some of the time a little over a year ago.

Hoser

 

[FightingIrish]

I've got a question for Speedtape since he seems to be well connected and informed. Is there anything we can do to protect our jobs with our contract? In other words, is the "scope" section really that important. Also, do you think we should try and get a single list? I have mixed emotions.

 

[FishandFly]

Speedtape,

In your initial list of reasons why ASA is doing well, the fact that we now have a contract did not come up.

Considering that almost every ASA pilot knows that the reason for our new found success is primarily the contract and little else, how did you end up on the other end of the spectrum?