ASA parking planes???

[Jorgy50]

Just to clarify things. Our contract (ASA) has a no furlough provision. It states that no pilot may be furloughed who is on the senority list at the time of signing. So for anyone hired after that date they can furlough; is that correct? It was signed on Nov. 20 and the last pilot hired before that date has a senority number of 1589. There are now 1731 pilots on the list which makes a possible 142 furloughs (I'm not saying there are going to be furloughs). That's what I see in the contract. Everyone's talking possible furloughs. Am I missing something?

 

[McNugent]

No Furlough

OK now that someone is thinking the same thing as me, here's what the contract says:

J. No Furlough
For the duration of this Agreement, notwithstanding the provisions of Section 23 and the provisions of paragraph 1.E.4., above, the Company will not furlough any pilot whose name is on the seniority list on the effective date of this Agreement except in circumstances over which the Company has no control. The term “circumstances over which the Company has no control” includes, but is not limited to, a natural disaster; grounding of a substantial number of the Company’s aircraft by a government agency; reduction in flying operations because of a decrease in available fuel supply or other critical material due to either governmental action or commercial suppliers being unable to provide sufficient fuel or other critical materials for the Company’s operations; revocation of the Company’s operating certificate; war emergency; owner’s delay in delivery of aircraft scheduled for delivery; or manufacturer’s delay in delivery of new aircraft scheduled for delivery. The term “circumstances over which the Company has no control” will not include the price of fuel or other supplies, the price of aircraft, the state of the economy, the financial state of the Company, or the relative profitability or unprofitability of the Company’s then-current operations.​

http://asacontract2007.alpa.org/Contract_pdf_docs/2008 0229 ASA Contract - Final with links.pdf​

Doesn't say anything about capacity reductions...

 

[79%N1]

Seriously, step away from the doomsday machine. Every post you've made is doom and gloom.

ASA has never furloughed anyone and doubt they're about to start now. .

Oil has never been nearly $150/barrel and climbing every day. This is not some short turn run up by speculators, or some bubble that will pop. This is worldwide global economics. Demand will not be reducing, and until we find alternatives in the distant future, the prices will remain unsustainable for this industry. People cannot afford what the prices will be by probably next summer. Capacity will be cut. The days of 8 flights a day to MEI, LFT, VLD, etc will be gone. I'm just looking at the reality of this, and not putting my head in the 'things will be rosy' sand.

 

[Medeco]

COMA's now listed on FLICA. Pretty sure that is new today.

Medeco

 

[JustaNumber]

Doesn't say anything about capacity reductions...

That's an excellent point. I would have thought that Delta's financial problems/schedule reductions should have been included in the no furlough clause, one way or the other. The way I read it as written, Delta's actions would be beyond ASA's control, so we're screwed. Not that we've necessarily reached that point yet, but I don't think that clause will help us much if it come to that.

 

[McNugent]

Just noticed COMA's myself. I feel like I've been in one after working on my bid the last hour... What does COMA mean exactly? Is it the same as a COLA?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Company Offered Monthly Absence. Page 46 of the contract, or 52 of the .pdf.

 

[thesource]

I really wish people would stop pinning any hope on a no furlough clause. It is not worth the paper it is written on and for that matter history shows these clauses have never done anything to stop a furlough.

If a company wants to do it they will and that clause will not stop them.

 

[Speedtape]

I really wish people would stop pinning any hope on a no furlough clause. It is not worth the paper it is written on and for that matter history shows these clauses have never done anything to stop a furlough.

If a company wants to do it they will and that clause will not stop them.

FALSE! Do your homework!

 

[CFI2766]

FALSE! Do your homework!

No NEED to do his/her homework!

Yup, I know what the contract says. Yup, at first glance, it's got pretty good language with regards to a furlough.

Seriously though, if ASA gets to a point where furloughs are needed, they'll simply propose a dollar per hour increase to the senior captains in exchange for furloughing the bottom 'X' number of guys. Given the choice between possible liquidation (which will be the stick used by management) and keeping their jobs, the senior guys will play ball. It might take a period of 'intense negotiations', and visible hand-wringing by the MEC, but it'll happen. Our pilot group wouldn't do that you say? Really now, think back: How was the 'signing bonus' distributed after the contract was settled? I've yet to meet a single FO who thinks that was fair.

Now, in defense of the folks making that decision, a certain amount of greed and selfishness amongst a pilot group is not unique to ASA. It's simply a fact of life now-a-days, especially in the regional airline side of the pool.

 

[sweptback]

How was the 'signing bonus' distributed after the contract was settled? I've yet to meet a single FO who thinks that was fair.

You know what? Not worth it. I have better things to do.

 

[CFI2766]

You know what? Not worth it. I have better things to do.

(If you care about the pilot group at ASA, and if you truly believe that I'm wrong on this, why not give me a reason as to why you feel that I've misunderstood? Would that not be a better thing to do?)

Cool. You disagree with the logic of my post?

Explain where I was wrong. Explain where there was a lack of truth.

It's not just me that feels this way: every FO (that I've spoken with) that actually read the algebraic formula of the distribution feels this way.

Captains, especially senior captains, made far more from the signing bonus than FOs. Fair? Well, for the vast majority of the pilot group at ASA, it depends on how many stripes you have on your shoulders.

My point here is that a precedent has been shown in which those that have will do what they feel they can to not only protect what they have, but to get more. In my example, it was the signing bonus distribution. Down the road, I could easily see an environment in which the senior captains could aquiesce to the requests of management to sell out the junior FOs with regards to furloughs.

Again, this is not unique to ASA. Also, I'm not being judgmental, I'm simply stating the factual history and a hypothetical future. Contract or not, if its time to furlough at ASA, it will happen.

It's my feeling that having an idea of what the future might hold is beneficial in the present. Disagree?

 

[Medeco]

No NEED to do his/her homework!

Yup, I know what the contract says. Yup, at first glance, it's got pretty good language with regards to a furlough.

Seriously though, if ASA gets to a point where furloughs are needed, they'll simply propose a dollar per hour increase to the senior captains in exchange for furloughing the bottom 'X' number of guys. Given the choice between possible liquidation (which will be the stick used by management) and keeping their jobs, the senior guys will play ball. It might take a period of 'intense negotiations', and visible hand-wringing by the MEC, but it'll happen. Our pilot group wouldn't do that you say? Really now, think back: How was the 'signing bonus' distributed after the contract was settled? I've yet to meet a single FO who thinks that was fair.

Now, in defense of the folks making that decision, a certain amount of greed and selfishness amongst a pilot group is not unique to ASA. It's simply a fact of life now-a-days, especially in the regional airline side of the pool.

You just proved your lack of ability for comprehensive thinking.

Medeco

 

[Medeco]

Seniority is a B!tch in the Biz, but you and I signed up for it didnt we?

So you think it was fair that the 700 drivers, which are most of the "senior guys" , got .25 cents/hr increase after 5 years?

I'm sure most FO's feel the way you explained, but my experience has been the vast majority have not a clue how the whole 5 yrs even played out. Much less the history of signing bonus distribution of past contracts at other carriers.

It would seem to me that you think the #1 and the #1000 should have been paid the same?

When the crap hits the fan, if it does at ASA, you can bet the people who have invested their career at ASA are going to think about that first.

By the way, show me another regional who demanded and recieved 60% of captain pay for FO's, very few if any. ASA has been a leader in that department so don't be so fast to point the finger at the "Senior guys"

Medeco

 

[sweptback]

By the way, show me another regional who demanded and recieved 60% of captain pay for FO's, very few if any. ASA has been a leader in that department so don't be so fast to point the finger at the "Senior guys"

Even to the point of reducing captain wages in the last contract to make sure the 60% was maintained. It would have been easier to keep the captain rates high and screw the FOs, but that didn't happen.

 

[JumpersAway]

Oil has never been nearly $150/barrel and climbing every day. This is not some short turn run up by speculators, or some bubble that will pop. This is worldwide global economics. Demand will not be reducing, and until we find alternatives in the distant future, the prices will remain unsustainable for this industry. People cannot afford what the prices will be by probably next summer. Capacity will be cut. The days of 8 flights a day to MEI, LFT, VLD, etc will be gone. I'm just looking at the reality of this, and not putting my head in the 'things will be rosy' sand.

So what exactly is the point of this??? I greatly respect you and what you post, but this is crap...I seriously hope you don't club your F/O's down with this. If you read too much into things, you are gonna' want to take a bath with a toaster, or cause an F/O to wrangle with an 18 wheeler.

F....'s haven't been announced yet.......Downgrades haven't been announced yet- or even hinted at for that matter.....Two months is an eternity in this business- more than plenty can happen. If we do follow through with the previously mentioned, then so be it- there's worse that can happen (ATA, Aloha, Frontier, etc.). In some sick way, it sounds like many are actually looking foward to, or hoping for, the above. Just let it happen, try to plan ahead if you will be affected, and LIVE YOUR LIFE........

Regarding the shuffling of SkyWesters over to do more Delta flying: a good source has told me that the new Delta contract (if it passes) will restrict any future growth/DCI portfolio flying to Union only carriers. Sorry SkyWest- you had your shot........

 

[thesource]

FALSE! Do your homework!

Give me a few example if you would please.

 

[79%N1]

So what exactly is the point of this??? I greatly respect you and what you post, but this is crap...I seriously hope you don't club your F/O's down with this. If you read too much into things, you are gonna' want to take a bath with a toaster, or cause an F/O to wrangle with an 18 wheeler.

F....'s haven't been announced yet.......Downgrades haven't been announced yet- or even hinted at for that matter.....Two months is an eternity in this business- more than plenty can happen. If we do follow through with the previously mentioned, then so be it- there's worse that can happen (ATA, Aloha, Frontier, etc.). In some sick way, it sounds like many are actually looking foward to, or hoping for, the above. Just let it happen, try to plan ahead if you will be affected, and LIVE YOUR LIFE........

Regarding the shuffling of SkyWesters over to do more Delta flying: a good source has told me that the new Delta contract (if it passes) will restrict any future growth/DCI portfolio flying to Union only carriers. Sorry SkyWest- you had your shot........

I agree, you are right in a way. And, like I said, I do not try to or mean to be a doomsdayer. I read a lot of financial trades, etc and probably get caught up listening to the industry analysts (not Boyd). It doesn't seem that the airlines can sustain their business models at 150+ oil. Some, like Delta, are hanging on right now due to smart hedges. Those won't last. AEagle, Comair, Republic, ExpressJet, PSA, and Air Wisky have already announced pretty large cut backs in pilot force. ASA is not immune to this.

Unfortunately, I see two thing. (IMHO) Oil not dropping. Why? Because it has a lot less to do with speculation than many think. It is very much the declining dollar, increased demand/shrinking supplies and worldwide politics.Iran, Venezuala, Nigeria, etc)
The other, ASA will be downsizing in the fall, more than the usual schedule reduction.

What does it mean for us? No clue.

I also agree 100% about hammering the FO's with this. I make it a point to not discuss this stuff with them. Who wants a bummed out crew? I go the other way when it comes up and say I think they will be fine.......blah blah.

Anyway. I hope it works out for all of us. I don't want to see Airtran, United, Skywest, Republic or anyone to lose out.......well, maybe Mesa!

 

[CFI2766]

Seniority is a B!tch in the Biz, but you and I signed up for it didnt we?

Yes. In fact, I believe that the Seniority system provides 1% more in the way of benefits to the majority of the folks in the pilot profession than a merit based system.

So you think it was fair that the 700 drivers, which are most of the "senior guys" , got .25 cents/hr increase after 5 years?

Frankly, yes. The folks with the highest pay scales haven't been doing too well, here lately, have they? We can ask for all we want from negotiations, but the reality is that the market - from Horizon to Mesa - decides what pay rates are acceptable. If the raise sought by the 'senior' guys was achieved, do you think they would still be holding the raise 1 year after contract was finalized? Ask Comair and XJT about this...

I'm sure most FO's feel the way you explained, but my experience has been the vast majority have not a clue how the whole 5 yrs even played out. Much less the history of signing bonus distribution of past contracts at other carriers.

Past events dictating justice versus Gordon Gecko doesn't really make sense, does it?

It would seem to me that you think the #1 and the #1000 should have been paid the same?

Where did get that from what I said? I do think that there should have been a ratio in the payout. No, not everyone should have gotten the same slice of the 'pie'. However, the contract was in negotiations for what, five years? Why were slices of pie split into the number of years that captains were at ASA?

When the crap hits the fan, if it does at ASA, you can bet the people who have invested their career at ASA are going to think about that first.

Yup, that's exactly my point. For anyone to think, or advise FOs, especially junior ones, otherwise, is just plain wrong.

By the way, show me another regional who demanded and recieved 60% of captain pay for FO's, very few if any. ASA has been a leader in that department so don't be so fast to point the finger at the "Senior guys"

Medeco

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[Speedtape]

Give me a few example if you would please.

Delta