ASA MEC endorses TA/Bonus formula published...

[GeekMaster]

I don't have exact numbers from the seniority list nor do I know how many will quit or be hired by November. However, if I did the math "somewhat" according to that Chinese translated instruction sheet, these numbers might be "in the ball park".

Captains Longevity share = $400
Captains Delay Share = about $1600

A 10 year captain gets 10x400=4000 and 5x1600=8000 for a total of 12,000.

A 5 year captain gets 5x400=2000 and 5x1600=8000 for a total of 10,000.

A 5 year F/O gets about 6,000 and a 3 year F/O gets about 3600.

I may be totally off and admit I had to do an educated guess on some of the "less than 3 years seniority" numbers. It should be in the park though.

 

[WWEfan]

I don't have exact numbers from the seniority list nor do I know how many will quit or be hired by November. However, if I did the math "somewhat" according to that Chinese translated instruction sheet, these numbers might be "in the ball park".

Captains Longevity share = $400
Captains Delay Share = about $1600

A 10 year captain gets 10x400=4000 and 5x1600=8000 for a total of 12,000.

A 5 year captain gets 5x400=2000 and 5x1600=8000 for a total of 10,000.

A 5 year F/O gets about 6,000 and a 3 year F/O gets about 3600.

I may be totally off and admit I had to do an educated guess on some of the "less than 3 years seniority" numbers. It should be in the park though.

My numbers were similar. +/- 5% No one will have an exact number until 11/20.

 

[FishandFly]

This is rather amusing.... shows you that all this "brotherhood" BS falls by the wayside when you start talking about real money....

This is a signing bonus, not retro pay..... only the ASA Coalition promised a signing bonus... the current administration pushed the "100% retro"..It wasn't delivered as promised.......

Joe,
Isn't it a bit insincere for you to find humor in a discussion of whether half of our pilot group (the poorer half at that) didn't get a fair amount?

What the ASA coalition wanted is useless to mention because no one wanted what you wanted. And you wouldn't have got anything near the contract we have now, nor the $13.5mil.

My point about it being based upon retro-pay is in line with what you just suggested yourself. It was sold as being based in retro pay.

---

What we have seen here is a bait and switch.

1. Our mec negotiated new payrates.

2. Our mec negotiated a signing bonus/retro pay to make an attempt at punishing management for keeping us at old pay rates for the past 5 years.

3. We are now being told that the $13.5mil is not for reimbursement of lost wages for the past 5 years, but a signing bonus that will be awarded with no respect of how much income the pilot actually lost.

 

[CFI2766]

EXACTLY.... The fact is, the majority of the pilots are getting a large raise and a big signing bonus....When it comes down to it, everyone looks out for number one............ and that ain't you......

Joe,

Once again, I would cheerfully suggest that you perform an anatomical impossibility on this issue.

If your role in this sh!tuation were reversed, you would bemoan loud and long, with as many syllables as your thesaurus could support, the injustice of the pay out. Like you said, "...everyone looks out for number one..."

It is highly disingenuous of you to promote this as an equitable solution. How would you feel about this if you were still on first year pay? I strongly suspect you would be looking out for number 1. It is a fair statement that the FOs could accurately perceive that they have not been looked after in this algorithmic payout. 'Number 1' to the folks who created this methodology appears to be captains, senior captains at that.

Correlated: You have repeatedly complained of the 'stepping stone' nature of the regional airline industry. You have surmised, accuarately, that as long as the regionals are seen as a waypoint in the career, and not the destination, the earnings power of a career regional airline pilot, such as yourself, will be limited.

News flash: This attitude, that you have eloquently distilled to "...everyone looks out for number one...", is a big reason that you have extremely limited pricing power when it comes to salary negotiations for senior captains at the regional level. If you welcomed new pilots to your flight deck, and your profession, i.e. regional airline career flight crew, you would have a much better shot at the unity required to establish a career at a regional airline as a viable option.

Cheers!

 

[CFI2766]

Well your not a CA, and you don't UNDERSTAND the responsibility, decision making, liability, blah, blah involved with being a grown up. I have a hard time taking you serious since you've been on here for two months w/4 posts.

Ohhhhh, OK, I get it, being a captain means that you are a grown up?

Posts like yours cause me to debate the accuracy of this statement...

 

[49W]

I don't understand why the the distribution can't be more transparent and easily discernable by the membership. I need to see where all the money goes so I can be confident there is nothing "fishy" going on.:erm:

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't understand why the the distribution can't be more transparent and easily discernable by the membership. I need to see where all the money goes so I can be confident there is nothing "fishy" going on.:erm:

The reason is to avoid the very exact fighting you see here. The MEC wisely decided to keep the actual amount a mystery until after the vote so that the pilots vote based on the merits of the contract itself, not the bonus amount.

The MEC has already worked out how much each seniority group will get. If you absolutely must know, call your rep... if you even know who he is.

 

[CFI2766]

Before you FOs get all wound up, I'm pretty sure that the 60% comes from the fact that you make 60% of captain pay at ASA, which is a lot more than at most comparable airlines.

Why would it be fair for you to get the same bonus a captain gets, when it's proportional to his salary, and a windfall compared to yours?

If it were that way, I'm sure none of you would be complaining. But would it still be "fair" to the majority?

The philosophical argument of 'might makes right', very close to the argument of 'fair to the majority', is often tenuous. Just because I physically could take the purse from the sweet little old lady, doesn't mean that I should. Just because the group that will benefit the most from this payout, captains, and senior captains at that, has the voting majority to make this pass, it doesn't mean that it is in in the best interests of the entire pilot group for this to pass 'as is'.

Now, with all that out of the way, I'd like to go on record, as a relatively junior FO, as supporting the methodology. Clearly, it is not a perfect solution. I do strongly support the concept that the longer serving, and suffering, ASA folks should receive a proportionally larger share of the signing bonus. Frankly, however, it does appear that captains will receive a larger share of the signing bonus because FOs will receive a smaller share of the signing bonus. With all of that being said, I think that this is the best solution achievable.

I'd like to see a special lane on I-75, both directions, for flight crew only, with no speed limit. I'd like to see a requirement that Skynation be profoundly spayed or neutered. Repeatedly. Finally, I'd like to see a law that mandated free ice cream for everyone on Friday. Every Friday.

Come on, in the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively minor issue to hold up the signing of this contract. It's just money. Whatever the dollar amount is, be it a free cup of coffee to a down payment on a new FO-mobile, it's more than I expected when I finished IOE. Let's vote this in and move on.

 

[John Pennekamp]

The philosophical argument of 'might makes right', very close to the argument of 'fair to the majority', is often tenuous. Just because I physically could take the purse from the sweet little old lady, doesn't mean that I should. Just because the group that will benefit the most from this payout, captains, and senior captains at that, has the voting majority to make this pass, it doesn't mean that it is in in the best interests of the entire pilot group for this to pass 'as is'.

Now, with all that out of the way, I'd like to go on record, as a relatively junior FO, as supporting the methodology. Clearly, it is not a perfect solution. I do strongly support the concept that the longer serving, and suffering, ASA folks should receive a proportionally larger share of the signing bonus. Frankly, however, it does appear that captains will receive a larger share of the signing bonus because FOs will receive a smaller share of the signing bonus. With all of that being said, I think that this is the best solution achievable.

I'd like to see a special lane on I-75, both directions, for flight crew only, with no speed limit. I'd like to see a requirement that Skynation be profoundly spayed or neutered. Repeatedly. Finally, I'd like to see a law that mandated free ice cream for everyone on Friday. Every Friday.

Come on, in the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively minor issue to hold up the signing of this contract. It's just money. Whatever the dollar amount is, be it a free cup of coffee to a down payment on a new FO-mobile, it's more than I expected when I finished IOE. Let's vote this in and move on.

Bravo.

 

[jeroom]

The philosophical argument of 'might makes right', very close to the argument of 'fair to the majority', is often tenuous. Just because I physically could take the purse from the sweet little old lady, doesn't mean that I should. Just because the group that will benefit the most from this payout, captains, and senior captains at that, has the voting majority to make this pass, it doesn't mean that it is in in the best interests of the entire pilot group for this to pass 'as is'.

Now, with all that out of the way, I'd like to go on record, as a relatively junior FO, as supporting the methodology. Clearly, it is not a perfect solution. I do strongly support the concept that the longer serving, and suffering, ASA folks should receive a proportionally larger share of the signing bonus. Frankly, however, it does appear that captains will receive a larger share of the signing bonus because FOs will receive a smaller share of the signing bonus. With all of that being said, I think that this is the best solution achievable.

I'd like to see a special lane on I-75, both directions, for flight crew only, with no speed limit. I'd like to see a requirement that Skynation be profoundly spayed or neutered. Repeatedly. Finally, I'd like to see a law that mandated free ice cream for everyone on Friday. Every Friday.

Come on, in the grand scheme of things, this is a relatively minor issue to hold up the signing of this contract. It's just money. Whatever the dollar amount is, be it a free cup of coffee to a down payment on a new FO-mobile, it's more than I expected when I finished IOE. Let's vote this in and move on.

Do you think we could get those Skywest 900's based in ATL neutered, so they don't reproduce?

Next friday, the Ice Cream is on me...~!

 

[Long Time Gone]

It effectively screws the 17 year FO, who has had to endure much more BS than the 5 year captain.

You obviously don't know Rich. He's treated with the same respect as a 17 yr CA here, by FOs and CAs alike. He does not have to endure BS from anyone, trust me. He's not one of those who couldn't upgrade, rather one who chose not to because he doesn't need the money.

Have a Coke and a smile.

 

[rightseatjocky]

I don't understand something. Is RC complaining that he isn't getting his fair share as a First Officer when he has more money than you can shake a stick at and I will never see in my lifetime?
I think that Joe is right on target about the 60% that a First Officer gets as they get paid 60% of Captains pay as of right now.
Now, I am not sure of the Chinese system that they are using to pay us all, but I figured that I would get about 8k. That is more than I had in my pocket before the bonus. Is it fair, who knows, I can say that I want to move on and make the company better. We need to get rid of BL as this sphinkter is so full of crap he can't see straight.
I also hope that Skywest pilot group votes Alpa in as I think that JA would have his a$$ handed to him with a slap in the face as his promises to them and then renigs would be a great thing for that group.

 

[Jmoney]

Joe's Pissed.

Joe's just upset that he didn't get elected to try and destroy ALPA from the inside. He now is an under-employed motivational speaker who lives in a trailer-down by the river.....

-Tough break Joe, sometimes life just takes a dump on you.... Life is a matter of perspective and yours is not a good one.

 

[GeekMaster]

Just wanted to update the numbers I posted earlier. Using ALPA's list, which breaks it down by seat, these numbers "might" be a little closer.

Captain longevity share: $255
Captain delay share: $1850

F/O longevity share $153
F/O delay share $1110

Therefore a 10 year captain gets 10x255=2550 and 5x1850=9250 for a total 11,800.

A 5 year captain gets 5x255=1275 and 5x1850=9250 for a total 10,525.

A 5 year f/o gets 5x153=765 and 5x1110=5550 for a total 6315.

Just to clarify, the only F/O's eligible for capt bonus are those out on military leave who would have been eligible to upgrade if they were active.

 

[CFI2766]

Just wanted to update the numbers I posted earlier. Using ALPA's list, which breaks it down by seat, these numbers "might" be a little closer.

Captain longevity share: $255
Captain delay share: $1850

F/O longevity share $153
F/O delay share $1110

Therefore a 10 year captain gets 10x255=2550 and 5x1850=9250 for a total 11,800.

A 5 year captain gets 5x255=1275 and 5x1850=9250 for a total 10,525.

A 5 year f/o gets 5x153=765 and 5x1110=5550 for a total 6315.

Just to clarify, the only F/O's eligible for capt bonus are those out on military leave who would have been eligible to upgrade if they were active.

Thanks for the math. I got frustrated after about 10 minutes.

What I take from this is that it would be good to be a captain. Would some of you old geezers please leave?