ASA MEC endorses TA/Bonus formula published...

[Long Time Gone]

.....but longevity OUTSIDE of the 5 year negotiating period should have NOTHING to do with it. This is money given SOLELY because of the delay in negotiating a new contract. Those here 10 years should not get a larger percentage than those here 6 years!!!!

Wrong. Doug's been here from day 1 for the most part. He's getting roughly $6600 more than I am. He makes a heck of a lot more per hour than I do, and that's what the purpose of the formula is. The Longevity issue only accounts for 25% of the total bonus, which is basically formulated to make up for the higher pay scale, regardless of where he tops out at. If you wish to make an arguement for longevity greater than 18 years since that's where our pay scale ends, so be it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

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YES!! I'd gladly trade every dime of this 'signing bonus' for better job protection. In fact, I'd wager that if every pilot at ASA turned down the signing bonus, but demanded a DOH integration (with fences, protections, whatever possible to avoid the USAir mess [read: be fair to the SKYW and ASA pilots, not to try to screw either group]) with SKYW, we would get it. This would be a HUGE step forward in protecting all of our jobs. No more whipsaw BS within the brand. (Well, between ASA and SKYW, anyways...)

Just sayin'.

I agree, but it won't happen.... people are already spending their money....

I doubt many will even read section 1, and even fewer will understand it....

 

[B.T.Justice]

Agreed that captains should get the 40% larger cut because of their 40% larger pay.....but longevity OUTSIDE of the 5 year negotiating period should have NOTHING to do with it. This is money given SOLELY because of the delay in negotiating a new contract. Those here 10 years should not get a larger percentage than those here 6 years!!!! They were both here the same amount of time the contract was expired. Now if you were only here 3 years.....well then you only should only get roughly 60% of the bonus amount (3/5 years). "Rewarding" a senior pilot for his longevity in this case is ridiculous.

AGREED!! The MEC should determine a per day dollar amount you are owed. You've been here the full 5 years, full payout. A few weeks, a couple of bucks....Thats fair.

The CA/FO payout is BS.

 

[Ineedabrew]

This is what I came up with regarding the 'signing bonus'
Using the July 2007 Seniority Roster I figured out approximately how many pilots were in each Longevity Step. After multiplying the Longevity Step by the number of pilots, you get the Total Longevity Years. Now granted, some people have left/retired/been fired and it would take countless hours to account for who was a Captain and F/O on Nov 20th (since FOs receive 60%). But If you reduce some of the longevity number years by 40% (ballparking how many people are FOs) then you come up with 11, 111.6 Longevity years amongst the pilot group. The $3,375,000 divided by this will yield approximately $303.00/longevity year. Take your longevity year (round up) and multiply by this $303.00. This would be your amount for the Longevity portion of the bonus (25%). If you are an FO take 60% of this amount (you can either take the total and multiply by 0.60 and that is the amount of take your longevity year and multiply by 0.60 and then the $303.00.

Contract delay credit is the same. Using the values that the Union puts in their resolution (which I don't totally understand) I came up with the number of pilots that fall into each of these delay steps. If you were hired before 1/1/2004 you have 5 years, 1/1/2004 to 1/1/2005 4 years, 1/1/2005 to 1/1/2006 3 years, 1/1/2006 to 1/1/2007 2 years, and after 1/1/2007 1 year (though this is broken up into several sub categories which I did not account for). Take the total number of pilots in each group and multiply by the various contact delay years (5,4,3,2 or 1). Taking this total number and adjusting for a general number that are FOs (FOs get 60%) you have 6312.4 Contract Delay years. Divid into the $10,125,000 and you get somewhere in the neighborhood of $1603.98 per delay year. Multiply your delay years (5,4,3,2,or 1) by this number. FOs must take the delay year of the final value and multiply by 0.60 to yield their amount.

Add the two together and the result is a very GENERAL ballpark number of what your bonus would be. There is alot of inherent error in these calculations..but it will give you a very general idea of where you lie.

For a 6 - 10 year Captain is is gonna be in the neighborhood of $9-11 K pre-tax. Remember it is what you are assigned on November 20th that dictates your fate as to if you have to take the 60% or not.

 

[CFI2766]

I agree, but it won't happen.... people are already spending their money....

I doubt many will even read section 1, and even fewer will understand it....

Granted, I'm a bit of a noob, but section 1 appears to be useless. I don't really see anything there to keep airplanes at ASA if JA really wants to move them.

What's the real point here?

 

[Speedtape]

Granted, I'm a bit of a noob, but section 1 appears to be useless. I don't really see anything there to keep airplanes at ASA if JA really wants to move them.

What's the real point here?

Section 1 is not useless or worthless! However, it does not give total or a large degree of protection! No scope language is perfect!

It seems to protect jobs of the pilots on the seniority list at date of signing by giving a no furlough clause--maybe a placebo at best!

It seems to restrict wholesale transfer of airplanes without at least some remedy. This will not prohibit transfer, but there are transfer limits defined by an exact number of planes. Otherwise, the fragmentation part becomes a factor.

The labor costs of operating the 70 did not increase to a point to justify transfer. Transfer cost money as stated in one of their previous financial statments. There seems to be no economic incentive to transfer. Any new planes assigned to ASA will not be flown by topped out crews, so average crew costs would decrease. That is an incentive to add more 700 or 900's.

If Inc. wants to transfer, it will be for other than economic reasons. They are having trouble hiring also. The want to make money.

The Scope is not worthless, but it is not eutopia. Combined with competitive costs, ASA should be safe and see increases in equipment!

Scope costs negotiating capital. We don't need ironclad, restrictive scope, if we have competitive costs. Scope is like insurance. It is risk sharing. If you want to reduce your risk to ZERO, then sign a 15 year contract for Mesa minus 10%.

ASA must be safe. SH has been telling people that he had two other job offers, and he chose to stay here because he thinks things are looking up.

Early settlers used dogs as a first and last line of defense to the threats of natives and wild animals. When they heard the dogs howl, occasioanlly run, and sometimes die, they knew they had something to worry about. I'll wait for the howl, or departure before I get worried.

 

[scarlet]

Speedtape Good post !

The payout is FAIR !!!

 

[twott driver]

How can you say that a 4 year captain receiving marginaly less(+-$100) than a 17 year fo is fair? Long term fo's and those on the verge of upgrade are getting screwed. The rest are probably quite happy

 

[FishandFly]

Saying it is fair shows that you have not seen the numbers, or that you do not care about what is fair and you are happy about the amount YOU are getting.

 

[genus]

How can you say that a 4 year captain receiving marginaly less(+-$100) than a 17 year fo is fair? Long term fo's and those on the verge of upgrade are getting screwed. The rest are probably quite happy

I delayed my upgrade a couple of months in an attempt not to sit on reserve for as many months as some who took the first possible upgrade award. Now I stand to lose thousands because my effective date is Jan. 1. How can you say that those guys that were FOs for only a few months less than me suffered more than me? I don't care how much perfume you put this, it still smells like a POS! I was thinking YES until I read about this. Now I think it is a hell NO!

 

[GeekMaster]

Saw Nick Tomlin....he had a spreadsheet showing each pilot's bonus IF THE LIST WAS LOCKED IN TODAY. The last set of numbers I posted was REALLY CLOSE.

If you want to know what you're getting, use them and once you get the final number, subtract about $200 from the total. That's probably because I had no way of knowing which military LOA's were entitled to Capt Bonuses.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I delayed my upgrade a couple of months in an attempt not to sit on reserve for as many months as some who took the first possible upgrade award. Now I stand to lose thousands because my effective date is Jan. 1. How can you say that those guys that were FOs for only a few months less than me suffered more than me? I don't care how much perfume you put this, it still smells like a POS! I was thinking YES until I read about this. Now I think it is a hell NO!

Then vote no. You will be in the minority.

I, on the other hand, took the first upgrade available, and ate it on the QOL for a year.

You chose QOL over money. We all make choices, pal. Now you have to live with your decision. Stop your whining and put in your upgrade bid. It'll get you an extra $30K per year, reserve is worth it.

 

[wms]

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YES!! I'd gladly trade every dime of this 'signing bonus' for better job protection. In fact, I'd wager that if every pilot at ASA turned down the signing bonus, but demanded a DOH integration (with fences, protections, whatever possible to avoid the USAir mess [read: be fair to the SKYW and ASA pilots, not to try to screw either group]) with SKYW, we would get it. This would be a HUGE step forward in protecting all of our jobs. No more whipsaw BS within the brand. (Well, between ASA and SKYW, anyways...)

Just sayin'.

Give up money to secure a job at ASA. I don't think so. And I'm sure a deal like that wouldn't pass.

 

[COOPERVANE]

AGREED!! The MEC should determine a per day dollar amount you are owed. You've been here the full 5 years, full payout. A few weeks, a couple of bucks....Thats fair.

The CA/FO payout is BS.

CALL/EMAIL YOUR REPS!!! TELL THEM YOU WANT A PER DAY DOLLAR AMOUNT!! NOT THIS 60% LONGEVITY BS!!

CALL/EMAIL YOUR REPS!!! TELL THEM YOU WANT A PER DAY DOLLAR AMOUNT!! NOT THIS 60% LONGEVITY BS!!

CALL/EMAIL YOUR REPS!!! TELL THEM YOU WANT A PER DAY DOLLAR AMOUNT!! NOT THIS 60% LONGEVITY BS!!

They will not consider changing ANYTHING unless 500 F.O.'s call/email and complain. They have only had 5-6 even call so far

DO IT!!

 

[CFI2766]

Yet another update to numbers. YES I'M BORED TODAY. This time I actually built it into a spreadsheet using Alpa's seniority list and let the computer do the math. Keep in mind, I still don't know who will quit or be added to the assignment sheet by 11/20. That said, this one will have the smallest margin of error yet.

Captains Longevity 289.30
Captains Delay 1872.67

F/O's multiply each value by .60

When using the examples listed in the MEC resolution, they are rounding UP to whole numbers for seniorities over 1 year. Therefore a pilot with 3 years 1 week will receive 4 shares. Here are some examples.

5 year Captain: Delay bonus 9363.38
Longevity : 1735.74
Total: 11099.12

10 year Captain: Delay 9363.38
Longevity 3182.19
Total: 12545.57

3 year FO: Delay 4494.42
Longevity 694.30

Did the list you saw continue with the idea of rounding up seniority? I.e., woud a 1 year and 1 week FO get two shares?

 

[GeekMaster]

In short, for all seniorities over one year (one year and one day or more) will use the paygrade you're on. In otherwords, if you have been here 3 years 11 months on November 20, you are on year four pay. Therefore you get 4 shares. If you have been here 4 years 2 weeks on November 20, you are on year 5 pay and get 5 shares.

I've said in another post that once you calculate your total, subtract about 200 bucks. The reason for that is ALPA's list was able to figure in the oddities that I wasn't. (military LOA's and such that qualified for Capt shares but weren't on the regular list.

 

[PCL_128]

I doubt many will even read section 1, and even fewer will understand it....

Agreed. Far too few pilots understand the importance of scope. They'll count their dollars now and ignore the fact that those very dollars can disappear tomorrow without job security. There's a reason that Scope is always at the very beginning of a contract: it's the most important thing.

 

[Well-hung Start]

The deal is flawed BECAUSE it is neither a "signing bonus" nor a "retro pay."

Here's why:

1) If this were a real RETRO PAY, it would be fair to pay FO's 60% of captains since that is roughly the pay rate ratio. BUT RETRO PAY WOULD BE ABOUT TRIPLE THE $13.5M! ie: it would pay each pilot the difference between the old and new contract, since the amendable date. The proposed payout is NOT "retro pay." Then why the 60% ratio?

2) Signing bonus should pay each pilot on the list the same. One vote=one bonus check.

What we have is some silly hybrid formula which appears to be "logical" but is really just a big smokescreen obscuring the real issue:

WE ARE GETTING SCREWED!

 

[COOPERVANE]

The deal is flawed BECAUSE it is neither a "signing bonus" nor a "retro pay."

Here's why:

1) If this were a real RETRO PAY, it would be fair to pay FO's 60% of captains since that is roughly the pay rate ratio. BUT RETRO PAY WOULD BE ABOUT TRIPLE THE $13.5M! ie: it would pay each pilot the difference between the old and new contract, since the amendable date. The proposed payout is NOT "retro pay." Then why the 60% ratio?

2) Signing bonus should pay each pilot on the list the same. One vote=one bonus check.

What we have is some silly hybrid formula which appears to be "logical" but is really just a big smokescreen obscuring the real issue:

WE ARE GETTING SCREWED!

agreed!! Call those reps!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

They will not consider changing ANYTHING unless 500 F.O.'s call/email and complain. They have only had 5-6 even call so far

DO IT!!

You're not going to get 500 calls. In fact, I've only counted about 10 or so people whining about it.

Get over it. The formula isn't going to change. I know this MEC and they will not revisit the issue.

Go ahead and vote no. You'll get NOTHING! Fool!