ASA MEC endorses TA/Bonus formula published...

[Medeco]

Thanks for the math. I got frustrated after about 10 minutes.

What I take from this is that it would be good to be a captain. Would some of you old geezers please leave?

How long have you been waiting?

Alot of the guys on here complaining, are forgetting the very foundation of the airline industry. I doesnt mean its fair or perfect, certainly not.

Its called SENIORITY/Date of Hire.

I make the cut of the larger sum by a mere week or two.

Had I decided to wait another few awards to upgrade, Id be really upset in the difference in money, but after thinking it through Id have only myself to blame.

The MEC has an impossible job in this regard, and I think they have taken the time to come up with the option that is most fair.

You cant please everyone. Its no different then, the perfect schedules/lines, or the perfect hotels/time there. Its different for everyone.

Medeco

 

[TurboAWD]

\
Compensation is status-dependant; signing-bonuses are not based on your status. Now if it were retro-pay, then I would agree with you.

Signing bonus/retro pay/whateveryoucall it.

It IS compensation and signing bonus are seat-dependant if that is what is decided and the pilots vote for.

Captain make more than FO's. That's just the way it is.

Turbo

 

[asayankee]

Agreed that captains should get the 40% larger cut because of their 40% larger pay.....but longevity OUTSIDE of the 5 year negotiating period should have NOTHING to do with it. This is money given SOLELY because of the delay in negotiating a new contract. Those here 10 years should not get a larger percentage than those here 6 years!!!! They were both here the same amount of time the contract was expired. Now if you were only here 3 years.....well then you only should only get roughly 60% of the bonus amount (3/5 years). "Rewarding" a senior pilot for his longevity in this case is ridiculous.

 

[scarlet]

I am voting YES--when do we get the check and raise if voted In?

 

[GeekMaster]

Yet another update to numbers. YES I'M BORED TODAY. This time I actually built it into a spreadsheet using Alpa's seniority list and let the computer do the math. Keep in mind, I still don't know who will quit or be added to the assignment sheet by 11/20. That said, this one will have the smallest margin of error yet.

Captains Longevity 289.30
Captains Delay 1872.67

F/O's multiply each value by .60

When using the examples listed in the MEC resolution, they are rounding UP to whole numbers for seniorities over 1 year. Therefore a pilot with 3 years 1 week will receive 4 shares. Here are some examples.

5 year Captain: Delay bonus 9363.38
Longevity : 1735.74
Total: 11099.12

10 year Captain: Delay 9363.38
Longevity 3182.19
Total: 12545.57

3 year FO: Delay 4494.42
Longevity 694.30

 

[John Pennekamp]

Thanks for the math. I got frustrated after about 10 minutes.

What I take from this is that it would be good to be a captain. Would some of you old geezers please leave?

How long have you been waiting?

Alot of the guys on here complaining, are forgetting the very foundation of the airline industry. I doesnt mean its fair or perfect, certainly not.

Its called SENIORITY/Date of Hire.

I make the cut of the larger sum by a mere week or two.

Had I decided to wait another few awards to upgrade, Id be really upset in the difference in money, but after thinking it through Id have only myself to blame.

The MEC has an impossible job in this regard, and I think they have taken the time to come up with the option that is most fair.

You cant please everyone. Its no different then, the perfect schedules/lines, or the perfect hotels/time there. Its different for everyone.

Medeco

FYI, CFI2766 hasn't even been here a year yet.

While he made a few comments I agreed with, his overall perception that he is owed something that he is not is becoming irritating. Him along with the others in his position.

Many of us in the 5-7 year seniority level were stuck in the right seat for up to 5 years, as a direct result of the contract delay and the growth stagnation it caused. These same pilots whining that those above them are getting more money and they are getting the shaft will enjoy a 2-3 year upgrade if things keep on track.

If you add up the lost opportunity costs of waiting 5 years vs. 2-3 years, it's about a $60,000 to $90,000 difference between FO pay and CA pay over those years (~$30K per year). So all of you junior FOs can stop whining about getting the shaft. In the long run, you'll get a lot more than those of us who were actually here for the whole contract and made FO pay for the whole 5 years.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Agreed that captains should get the 40% larger cut because of their 40% larger pay.....but longevity OUTSIDE of the 5 year negotiating period should have NOTHING to do with it. This is money given SOLELY because of the delay in negotiating a new contract. Those here 10 years should not get a larger percentage than those here 6 years!!!! They were both here the same amount of time the contract was expired. Now if you were only here 3 years.....well then you only should only get roughly 60% of the bonus amount (3/5 years). "Rewarding" a senior pilot for his longevity in this case is ridiculous.

I believe that's why longevity is only weighted at 25%, and contract duration is weighted at 75%.

 

[Smarta$$]

Agreed that captains should get the 40% larger cut because of their 40% larger pay.....but longevity OUTSIDE of the 5 year negotiating period should have NOTHING to do with it. This is money given SOLELY because of the delay in negotiating a new contract. Those here 10 years should not get a larger percentage than those here 6 years!!!! They were both here the same amount of time the contract was expired. Now if you were only here 3 years.....well then you only should only get roughly 60% of the bonus amount (3/5 years). "Rewarding" a senior pilot for his longevity in this case is ridiculous.

I was thinking the same thing. That bonus/retro/whatever was for working under an expired/amendable contract over the last five years.

Longevety beyond five years should have NOTHING to do with it.

For the guy that said the contract should be voted on based on the merits and not the distribution of the retro/bonus, I SAY BS. The distribution is a huge part of the equation and I would definately vote hell no under that plan.

Why is it that those that have the most and make the most are the most greedy.

 

[CFI2766]

The MEC has an impossible job in this regard, and I think they have taken the time to come up with the option that is most fair.

You cant please everyone. Its no different then, the perfect schedules/lines, or the perfect hotels/time there. Its different for everyone.

Medeco[/quote]


Clearly, the folks who negotiated this spent an enourmous amount of effort to make the proposed payout as palatable as possible. I don't envy that job at all: it's impossible to do. All in all, I think that they did a good job with what they had to work with. My hat's off to them....metaphorically, of course.

It would be pretty silly to let this one issue divide the pilot group in the face of this long awaited contract. I don't want to have to share a cockpit down the road with a bitter captain, or, eventually, a bitter FO based off of this windfall.

My take: the TA is a step forward, and should be voted in, even if I personally were to receive nothing in the way of a signing/retro Christmas present.

 

[CFI2766]

FYI, CFI2766 hasn't even been here a year yet.

While he made a few comments I agreed with, his overall perception that he is owed something that he is not is becoming irritating. Him along with the others in his position.

Awww come on, I was joking with the 'geezers' comment. Hell, I'm older than you are! I've got one foot n' the proverbial grave!

I don't feel that I'm 'owed' anything other than to be treated fairly. Within the confines of this particular situation, I feel that I'm being treated as fairly as possible. I am, however, in the minority, (as in, I'm the only one that feels this way), amongst the FOs that I've spoken with on this issue. Such as life...

Let's get on with voting.

 

[padusmaximus]

Just to clarify. Assuming this thing passes, if I'm on the seniority list on 11/20 i'll get my check, even if I'm not around for the actual distribution?

 

[jstyle13]

If you are a 4th year employee who has just upgraded to captian and are on the list as a Cpt on the 20th, do you just use the captain numbers to find your payout or do you get 3 years at FO and 1 at captain?

Also, if you are in your 4th year here, do you round up to 5 for your longevity???

 

[GeekMaster]

If you are a 4th year employee who has just upgraded to captian and are on the list as a Cpt on the 20th, do you just use the captain numbers to find your payout or do you get 3 years at FO and 1 at captain?

Also, if you are in your 4th year here, do you round up to 5 for your longevity???

The MEC resolution refers to "assignments" as of 11/20. If you have an "award" but haven't yet done your training, you should expect to be considered in your previous class.

According to the resolution, it does not consider split billing; you're either Capt or FO.

According to the examples the resolution uses, seniority is rounded up to the next year. If you have been here 3 years 364 days, you will receive 4 years credit. If you have been here 4 years 2 days, you will receive 5 years credit. (at least according to their examples)

 

[Snapperhead]

Yet another update to numbers. YES I'M BORED TODAY. This time I actually built it into a spreadsheet using Alpa's seniority list and let the computer do the math. Keep in mind, I still don't know who will quit or be added to the assignment sheet by 11/20. That said, this one will have the smallest margin of error yet.

Thanks for taking the time to figure out that mess.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,
Isn't it a bit insincere for you to find humor in a discussion of whether half of our pilot group (the poorer half at that) didn't get a fair amount?

The humor is in watching all the ALPA true believers argue about getting screwed.... I guess you don't see the irony there.... "Fair" is always in the eye of the beholder.... despite what the union diehards say...

What the ASA coalition wanted is useless to mention because no one wanted what you wanted. And you wouldn't have got anything near the contract we have now, nor the $13.5mil.

Actually it would be very close to the current agreement.... most of this was already agreed to prior to the election.....

The big raise on the 700 was conceded, the Bfund retirement was conceded, the instructor section (especially the LCA) was conceded, and the 100% retro was conceded..... In addition, we agreed to the profit sharing, which I think is a good thing.....

I would have traded some of the signing bonus, pay, and PBS for better job security...... but this is very close to what I believe could have been achieved over a year ago....

My point about it being based upon retro-pay is in line with what you just suggested yourself. It was sold as being based in retro pay.

Exacty..... It was sold by the "no pilot left behind" group... the key word being "sold"..... and you fell for it.... I didn't....

---

What we have seen here is a bait and switch.

1. Our mec negotiated new payrates.

2. Our mec negotiated a signing bonus/retro pay to make an attempt at punishing management for keeping us at old pay rates for the past 5 years.

3. We are now being told that the $13.5mil is not for reimbursement of lost wages for the past 5 years, but a signing bonus that will be awarded with no respect of how much income the pilot actually lost.

It was you, a major supporter of the current admin., that fell for the "bait and switch" as you call it.... I told you it wasn't going to happen..... Don't agree with me, that's fine, but I will tell you what I think is achievable and what will happen..... The politicians will tell you what you want to hear and then they will do the "bait and switch"....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Once again, I would cheerfully suggest that you perform an anatomical impossibility on this issue.

If your role in this sh!tuation were reversed, you would bemoan loud and long, with as many syllables as your thesaurus could support, the injustice of the pay out. Like you said, "...everyone looks out for number one..."

It is highly disingenuous of you to promote this as an equitable solution. How would you feel about this if you were still on first year pay? I strongly suspect you would be looking out for number 1. It is a fair statement that the FOs could accurately perceive that they have not been looked after in this algorithmic payout. 'Number 1' to the folks who created this methodology appears to be captains, senior captains at that.

Correlated: You have repeatedly complained of the 'stepping stone' nature of the regional airline industry. You have surmised, accuarately, that as long as the regionals are seen as a waypoint in the career, and not the destination, the earnings power of a career regional airline pilot, such as yourself, will be limited.

News flash: This attitude, that you have eloquently distilled to "...everyone looks out for number one...", is a big reason that you have extremely limited pricing power when it comes to salary negotiations for senior captains at the regional level. If you welcomed new pilots to your flight deck, and your profession, i.e. regional airline career flight crew, you would have a much better shot at the unity required to establish a career at a regional airline as a viable option.

Cheers!

I'm not going to disagree with you...... Most everyone here is looking out for number one..... I would gladly trade my signing bonus and pay increase in for better scope...... but that isn't going to happen....

While far from perfect, I am voting yes and hoping that Jerry doesn't start shrinking ASA.... If he doesn't, I will have a very good job with good pay....

I would like ALPA to deal with this "bidding" within a portfolio, but it doesn't appear that is going to happen....

Cheers....:beer:

 

[scarlet]

I am voting yes, for what I have seen and most people I have flown with like it as well.

 

[scarlet]

What is going to be the Date of Signing?

 

[CFI2766]

I'm not going to disagree with you...... Most everyone here is looking out for number one..... I would gladly trade my signing bonus and pay increase in for better scope...... but that isn't going to happen....

While far from perfect, I am voting yes and hoping that Jerry doesn't start shrinking ASA.... If he doesn't, I will have a very good job with good pay....

I would like ALPA to deal with this "bidding" within a portfolio, but it doesn't appear that is going to happen....

Cheers....:beer:

\\


YES!! I'd gladly trade every dime of this 'signing bonus' for better job protection. In fact, I'd wager that if every pilot at ASA turned down the signing bonus, but demanded a DOH integration (with fences, protections, whatever possible to avoid the USAir mess [read: be fair to the SKYW and ASA pilots, not to try to screw either group]) with SKYW, we would get it. This would be a HUGE step forward in protecting all of our jobs. No more whipsaw BS within the brand. (Well, between ASA and SKYW, anyways...)

Just sayin'.

 

[CFI2766]

In fact, I think that a merged pilot group would produce both growth and job stability. These are things that every pilot should want.

Geezers keep their jobs. Transient punks get what they want. It's a win/win.