Asa Havco Starts

[PCL_128]

ALPA national isn't going to "allow" ASA to cause Delta any problems. We'll keep getting the same old "we're doing all we can do" "you have no case in court" yadda yadda. Don't forget that mainline pilots pay LOTS MORE in dues than ASA. Take care of the mainline pilots first and keep Delta healthy enough to merge it with NWA.

Do you also wear a tinfoil hat to keep the "aliens" from reading your thoughts? Some of you guys spend way too much time conjuring up these ridiculous conspiracy theories. Whether you want to believe it or not, the guys at National are on your side.

 

[John Pennekamp]

we won't get a release.

ALPA national isn't going to "allow" ASA to cause Delta any problems. We'll keep getting the same old "we're doing all we can do" "you have no case in court" yadda yadda. Don't forget that mainline pilots pay LOTS MORE in dues than ASA. Take care of the mainline pilots first and keep Delta healthy enough to merge it with NWA.

Do you also wear a tinfoil hat to keep the "aliens" from reading your thoughts? Some of you guys spend way too much time conjuring up these ridiculous conspiracy theories. Whether you want to believe it or not, the guys at National are on your side.

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact. If you don't recognize the fact that mainline pilots have more influence in ALPA, you either 1. haven't been around very long 2. are still drunk on the Herndon KoolAid or 3. never researched the composition of the Executive Board.

It's true that DALPA does not want anything "messy" to happen at ASA. It's already been revealed that Moak is leaning on Delta to get SkyWest/ASA to settle. It's reasonable to expect the same pressure being applied to ALPA to keep us from striking, which may royally screw Delta's recovery plan.

DALPA will never fall on their swords for us commuter trash.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Wow you guys sound like you are having so much fun !! Wish I could come fly with you all for a couple weeks just to enjoy the great times and also shove it to all these greedy management aholes

 

[PCL_128]

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact. If you don't recognize the fact that mainline pilots have more influence in ALPA, you either 1. haven't been around very long 2. are still drunk on the Herndon KoolAid or 3. never researched the composition of the Executive Board.

Of all things to point to to point out the supposed influence of mainline pilots, the EB is the last thing you should use. There are now 41 ALPA pilot groups, and only 5 legacy ALPA carriers. Since each MEC gets only one member on the EB (the Master-Chairman), then Newie gets the same power on the EB that Moak and everyone else gets.

It's true that DALPA does not want anything "messy" to happen at ASA. It's already been revealed that Moak is leaning on Delta to get SkyWest/ASA to settle. It's reasonable to expect the same pressure being applied to ALPA to keep us from striking, which may royally screw Delta's recovery plan.

I fully expect Captain Moak to put pressure on Delta to get Skywest/ASA management to settle. That makes perfect sense. Expecting him to put pressure on the ASA MEC does not make sense. Lee is not some anti-regional extremist. You're not dealing with Mark Bathurst here.

 

[CFI2766]

What's the status of ASA and the NMB? The last news I heard had the board telling us that we would be in touch in the 'near future'. When will we hear more from the board?

 

[COOPERVANE]

Keep flying safe!!! If we don't push for 100% safety for several weeks this will ALL be a waste of time.

Expect and Ignore skewed daily reports that look like we have backed off!!

It will accomplish nothing but to PISS OFF DELTA That alone is not enough

 

[John Pennekamp]

Of all things to point to to point out the supposed influence of mainline pilots, the EB is the last thing you should use. There are now 41 ALPA pilot groups, and only 5 legacy ALPA carriers. Since each MEC gets only one member on the EB (the Master-Chairman), then Newie gets the same power on the EB that Moak and everyone else gets.

I fully expect Captain Moak to put pressure on Delta to get Skywest/ASA management to settle. That makes perfect sense. Expecting him to put pressure on the ASA MEC does not make sense. Lee is not some anti-regional extremist. You're not dealing with Mark Bathurst here.

PCL, you're confusing the Executive COUNCIL with the Executive BOARD. The EC has membership made up of the MEC chairmen you mentioned. The EB is the EVPs of which each mainline group has one and everybody else shares four.

The EC is like the BOD. It's a rubber stamp. The actual decision makers are the EB and the EVPs and I GUARANTEE that Greer is not going to let ASA take down Delta.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, you're confusing the Executive COUNCIL with the Executive BOARD. The EC has membership made up of the MEC chairmen you mentioned. The EB is the EVPs of which each mainline group has one and everybody else shares four.

The EC is like the BOD. It's a rubber stamp. The actual decision makers are the EB and the EVPs and I GUARANTEE that Greer is not going to let ASA take down Delta.

John, I expect you to know much better than that. Take a look at the Constitution & By-Laws, page 47:

Article V, Section 1.A - The Executive Board shall be composed of the Chairman of the Master Executive Council of
each airline.
​

The Executive Council is made up of the EVPs like Mr. Geer (not Greer). And I can assure you that neither body is a "rubber stamp."

 

[John Pennekamp]

It was definately MCT Ruegger (Double R)

Speaking of "Double R" I was out working in my yard today, and I see and hear this ATR go tearing overhead at low altitude and high speed. It was heading away from the airport. So I go in and look up the flow on the computer. Sure enough RR is on his way to Hilton Head. I looked the flight up on Flight Aware, and sure enough, there he was at 4000 ft and 250 kt going right over my town. I assume he did 4000 all the way to HXD.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And I can assure you that neither body is a "rubber stamp."

You can? Do tell.

 

[PCL_128]

You can? Do tell.

You ever think that maybe you should stop and talk with these guys, John? I've talked with Mr. Geer, even worked together with him on the Skywest organizing campaign, and there's no doubt that he has opinions of his own and isn't just part of a "rubber stamp" committee. The same could be said of the other EVPs, and the members of the EB. Did you fail to notice that an EVP (Captain Miller) voted against the Age-60 resolution? How 'bout the 80-20 split vote on the EB for the same issue? How can these be "rubber stamp" bodies if there is dissenting opinion and votes aren't unanimous? You've fallen into the same trap as guys like John B., thinking that there's a conspirator behind every door out to get the regional pilots. It simply isn't the case.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You ever think that maybe you should stop and talk with these guys, John? I've talked with Mr. Geer, even worked together with him on the Skywest organizing campaign, and there's no doubt that he has opinions of his own and isn't just part of a "rubber stamp" committee. The same could be said of the other EVPs, and the members of the EB. Did you fail to notice that an EVP (Captain Miller) voted against the Age-60 resolution? How 'bout the 80-20 split vote on the EB for the same issue? How can these be "rubber stamp" bodies if there is dissenting opinion and votes aren't unanimous? You've fallen into the same trap as guys like John B., thinking that there's a conspirator behind every door out to get the regional pilots. It simply isn't the case.

I know this is confusing, especially since I mixed up the EC and the EB, but pay close attention. I said the EB (the MEC chairmen) is the rubber stamp, just like the BOD. The EC (EVPs) are the decision makers. And the EC is not going to let ASA strike Delta. They will steer for a settlement, even if it throws ASA under the bus, reference Mesaba and Comair III.

I do know Mr Geer. We at ASA probably knew him much better than you at PCL since we HAD to have a relationship with DALPA. I also know that the DALPA group is famous for patting you on the back and telling you you're doing a great job, then throwing you in front of the bus later. Reference the PID.

Don't lump me in with JB just because I disagree with you. I am a critical thinker, and while I agree with JB on some things, in most areas, he's off the reservation. I don't think there's a conspiracy around every corner.

I do think there's a very real and concerted effort in Herndon to make sure ASA's problems don't hurt Delta, and thus ALPA. This is why there has been no pressure put on the board other than Prater's lip service. This is also why ALPA Legal has refused to take legal action against ASA for violating the status quo.

 

[PCL_128]

I know this is confusing, especially since I mixed up the EC and the EB, but pay close attention. I said the EB (the MEC chairmen) is the rubber stamp, just like the BOD.

Fair enough, but that still doesn't account for the 80-20 split vote that recently took place, or the many other non-unanimous votes that take place at the EB. I will agree, however, that the EB generally has less power than the EC. But, when it comes right down to it, any disputed interpretations of policy and any changes to the Admin Manual and C & BLs must go through the the EB for final approval. That means that each MEC Chairman, from the legacies all the way down to the tiny Canadian commuters, all have equal power in finalizing ALPA policy.

The EC (EVPs) are the decision makers. And the EC is not going to let ASA strike Delta. They will steer for a settlement, even if it throws ASA under the bus, reference Mesaba and Comair III.

I know a couple of EVPs that are just as angry at the situation at ASA as you are, and they just so happen to be legacy EVPs. You'd be surprised at just how hard-core some of these guys are, especially including a few of the new guys that came in this year. They will certainly not be steering for any substandard settlement. As far as Mesaba, you should probably talk to former EVP Captain Wychor about that. I think you'll find that he interprets that situation a whole lot differently than you.

I do know Mr Geer. We at ASA probably knew him much better than you at PCL since we HAD to have a relationship with DALPA. I also know that the DALPA group is famous for patting you on the back and telling you you're doing a great job, then throwing you in front of the bus later. Reference the PID.

I was going to respond, but I think we've argued the PID enough over the past few years. We just ain't gonna see eye to eye on that one.

Don't lump me in with JB just because I disagree with you. I am a critical thinker, and while I agree with JB on some things, in most areas, he's off the reservation. I don't think there's a conspiracy around every corner.

Sorry, but I continue to be baffled by your sudden 180 a few months ago. You were extremely supportive of the current MEC members, and all of a sudden you did an about-face and started calling for recalls and new leadership. Sounds more like John B. than John P.

I do think there's a very real and concerted effort in Herndon to make sure ASA's problems don't hurt Delta, and thus ALPA. This is why there has been no pressure put on the board other than Prater's lip service. This is also why ALPA Legal has refused to take legal action against ASA for violating the status quo.

Where would the status quo lawsuit come from? How has ASA management broken the status quo? I haven't heard of that one before. I have heard that ALPA Legal is preparing a status quo lawsuit at one or two other properties, however.

As for the allegations about Herndon trying to stop ASA from hurting Delta, I couldn't disagree more. My recent conversations with friends in Herndon indicate that they are just itching to take further action on this. But I'm sure you think that they're just spreading propaganda, so I'm probably just wasting my time.

 

[Tomct]

Keep flying safe!!! If we don't push for 100% safety for several weeks this will ALL be a waste of time.

Expect and Ignore skewed daily reports that look like we have backed off!!

It will accomplish nothing but to PISS OFF DELTA That alone is not enough

AGREED!! We MUST stay the course and show them exactly WHO is REALLY in charge!! Like Cooper said...KEEP FLYING SAFE!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Sorry, but I continue to be baffled by your sudden 180 a few months ago. You were extremely supportive of the current MEC members, and all of a sudden you did an about-face and started calling for recalls and new leadership. Sounds more like John B. than John P.

Up until "a few months ago" I had a duty and responsibility to my fellow pilots to toe the ALPA line. I no longer have that requirement and am free to speak my mind publicly. That's the only difference. My views haven't changed

Where would the status quo lawsuit come from? How has ASA management broken the status quo? I haven't heard of that one before. I have heard that ALPA Legal is preparing a status quo lawsuit at one or two other properties, however.

1. Arbitrary disregard of any section of our contract they find objectionable.

2. Immediate imposition of the company's table position du jour throughout negotiations.

3. Transfer of airplanes to Skywest and forced downgrades... all to have a "pilot shortage" three months later.

4. Imposition of terrible lines as retaliation for the us not accepting PBS.

5. Decimation of our pass benefits to the point that they will be useless and too costly to be of any value whatsoever.

5. Transfer of airplanes to Skywest and forced downgrades... all to have a "pilot shortage" three months later.

6. The list goes on...

As for the allegations about Herndon trying to stop ASA from hurting Delta, I couldn't disagree more. My recent conversations with friends in Herndon indicate that they are just itching to take further action on this. But I'm sure you think that they're just spreading propaganda, so I'm probably just wasting my time.

Your "recent conversations"? You're not even a fricking ALPA member any more. You were a sitting status rep, and you took the first parachute you got, selling out the pilots who elected you. And you want to tell me about ALPA? I served 5 years with distinction. No, PCL, you will not convince me. You're wasting your time