ASA/CMR merger?

[FlyComAirJets]

As Gee Lee pointed out a couple of months ago, "Anything can be negotiated."

Each party in this situation has the capability to provide something that the other party wants. Managment says they want, no NEED, vast concessions. Pilots want some job security by eliminating the whipsawing of one pilot group against each other. That's the need.

Management can redo the manner with which they do business, currently the Jump Ball - Free for All approach. Pilots can grant the relaxing from contractural stipulations such as payrates and work rules. That's the relief.

Fingerpointing (especially the middle finger) as to just who is at fault here is irrelevant. Deal with it, then move on.

I think everyone would agree that this infighting is not only pointless, it is detrimental to the overall strength and survivability of our company. If the company wants us to change our contract (that's how we do our jobs -- our business if you will) then a profound operational reorganization is necessary. MBA-types would call it a paradigm shift. I have zero interest in enabling the company to continue this pitting of me against fellow workers and my union bretheren.

If that is too much of a stretch for management to agree to then screw 'em. We'll just hold up that little piece of paper, smile, and say 'a contract is a contract -- thanks for playing Airline Jeopardy. Be sure to pick up some lovely parting gifts.'

I'm out.

 

[Lance501]

just an idea.....maybe its crazy

CMR/ASA merge doh, then they are stapled to the DAL list. Brand scope is in place, every one is called back and all are happy. If there is another down turn and furloughs are required then original DAL pilots can only flow back as far as the 70+ seaters. That way everone gains but 2/3's the pilot group doesn't have to give up everything to get it done. The strength would be there without anyone really losing their current position in the whole scheme of the bottom of their respective lists. Delta is stronger because all A/C scope is gone and we can compete in every market with the best A/C.
Maybe we could stop this ugly race to the bottom.

Ok pick it apart,

 

[General Lee]

I like it----and it gives protection to everyone. Sell it to management---and I will be amazed. They probably wouldn't like all of the leverage we would have, but they could right size the markets.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

General:

We would need the help of mainline DAL pilots to make this happen. Since the company is asking you for concessions, perhaps this is one thing you could demand in exchange. DALPA would be able to more properly control and monitor the flying done by DCI and it would greatly enhance job security and get the furloughees back to work. As for us, we are in contract negotiations right now, and while I'm NOT willing to give $$ (I can't afford to), I would be willing to work with the company for a reduced increase in wages as long a QOL was improved.

Comair guys would have to do some soal searching to see what angle they can approach this with.

It's possible, and would be healthy for all of us. It would take the muscle of all pilot groups involved.

Having said that, anything healthy for us will probably be shot down by management.

 

[rjcap]

Are you serious with that question? It sounds like you could care less about the comair pilot group as a whole and only what is in it for you. That won't fly, I don't care how long you have been here.

Relax and take a chill pill.

I posted those questions to see if anybody had actually thought through this process of merging/stapling. I believe ASA and Comair would be merged DOH and then stapled. However, you never know how these issues would be handled.

Anybody else want to have an irrational First Officer response.

 

[rjcap]

Having said that, anything healthy for us will probably be shot down by management

Maybe not.


Consider that Leo wants to rebuild Delta to be the premier major airline. Suppose he gets concessions/scope relief at the expense of combining pilot groups. Suppose the airline grows and rebounds to record profitibility. Leo looks like a hero and then leaves with all his stock options and benefits before the next unified pilot contract has to be negotiated.

 

[General Lee]

It could happen. I'll mention it to the people I know.(which might not help at all)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Maybe not.

Consider that Leo wants to rebuild Delta to be the premier major airline. Suppose he gets concessions/scope relief at the expense of combining pilot groups. Suppose the airline grows and rebounds to record profitibility. Leo looks like a hero and then leaves with all his stock options and benefits before the next unified pilot contract has to be negotiated.

This is a very old expression but maybe you'll catch the drift.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This is a very old expression but maybe you'll catch the drift.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

Yawn, from the know it all who is usually wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

merger?

Yawn, from the know it all who is usually wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

Indulge me. How long have you been an airline pilot?

A union member?

 

[N2264J]

merger?

General:

I know giving all of us a number could meet resistance by DALPA, but perhaps there is some middle ground. Both pilot groups would some kind of protection in the even of another economic down turn.

Enter the double staple.

List A: Comair and ASA are combined date of hire and stapled to the bottom of the mainline list for purposes of bidding mainline equipment.

List B: The mainline list is stapled to the bottom of the combined Comair and ASA list for the purposes of bidding CMR/ASA equipment (say 105 seats and below based on ASA's BAE-146s in 1996).

In other words, you want to bid a 737, use seniority List A. Bid a CRJ, seniority List B.

Everyone gets two seniority numbers and exercises his seniority accordingly. Furloughees can exercise their seniority and come back as fast as we get RJs. List C would be the new hires with seniority numbers, of course, coming after List A & B but the company (Delta Air Lines) can place them 1) in whatever equipment they're needed and 2) in accordance with their seniority. You don't have to merge the companies to merge the lists. No need for fences, no bumping from the seat you occupy now and the company is free to deploy the right size airframe in any market at any time of day. In addition, merging the lists would, I suspect, make the lawsuit moot and go a long way toward the concept of collective bargaining and union strength.

It's doable. We can focus all our efforts on the real competition out in the marketplace but not surprisingly, we'll need the support of ALPA to pull it off. As Sleepy pointed out, we just need ALPA to take it to the NMB but right now, Duane is talking "brand scope" which, I believe, is a euphemism for "status quo."

 

[General Lee]

N2264J,

That double staple seems a bit complicated. If there was one staple, why would someone flying a larger mainline plane bid down to a lower paying aircraft? The only reason I would see is a lifestyle bid. Most of the senior RJ capts would probably bid up to get more pay and a better chance for a better retirement. It just seems a bit too complicated.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: merger?

Indulge me. How long have you been an airline pilot?

A union member? [/QUOTE

Why does it matter? Surplus has awed us with his "experience" more times than I can count. On the cusp, he has been proven wrong on three seperate occasions by just me. Experience is important, but it can work against you, as it is with the senior contingent at Comair. I find it interesting that in your next post you talk about actions which would cause the lawsuit to be moot. Many think it is there already, or haven't you noticed the uproar in the Comair MEC. The rats will soon be deserting the ship in droves, and some in the know are fearing what the reprocussions from the Delta MEC might be--as in NO relationship. We will not obtain any kind of scope without their help. Without scope, we are at the mercy of the CHQs and the Mesas of the world.

Be careful who you worship, my friend. It could just be the wolf in sheeps clothing.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Dude]

I am all for guys out of work coming back and earning a living. When they do come back whether it be at mainline or DCI I don't want them taking the upgrade chance I've been waiting 4+ years for. That I am not willing to give up. If guys come back as cpts, then I'll end up being a six year fo-screw that I didn't interview at Eagle for a reason.

 

[General Lee]

Who said that would happen? We don't know what, if anything, would be worked out. It is all speculation.

Bye Bye--General Lee