ASA/CMR merger?

[N2264J]

merger?

General:

I know giving all of us a number could meet resistance by DALPA, but perhaps there is some middle ground. Both pilot groups would some kind of protection in the even of another economic down turn.

Enter the double staple.

List A: Comair and ASA are combined date of hire and stapled to the bottom of the mainline list for purposes of bidding mainline equipment.

List B: The mainline list is stapled to the bottom of the combined Comair and ASA list for the purposes of bidding CMR/ASA equipment (say 105 seats and below based on ASA's BAE-146s in 1996).

In other words, you want to bid a 737, use seniority List A. Bid a CRJ, seniority List B.

Everyone gets two seniority numbers and exercises his seniority accordingly. Furloughees can exercise their seniority and come back as fast as we get RJs. List C would be the new hires with seniority numbers, of course, coming after List A & B but the company (Delta Air Lines) can place them 1) in whatever equipment they're needed and 2) in accordance with their seniority. You don't have to merge the companies to merge the lists. No need for fences, no bumping from the seat you occupy now and the company is free to deploy the right size airframe in any market at any time of day. In addition, merging the lists would, I suspect, make the lawsuit moot and go a long way toward the concept of collective bargaining and union strength.

It's doable. We can focus all our efforts on the real competition out in the marketplace but not surprisingly, we'll need the support of ALPA to pull it off. As Sleepy pointed out, we just need ALPA to take it to the NMB but right now, Duane is talking "brand scope" which, I believe, is a euphemism for "status quo."

 

[General Lee]

N2264J,

That double staple seems a bit complicated. If there was one staple, why would someone flying a larger mainline plane bid down to a lower paying aircraft? The only reason I would see is a lifestyle bid. Most of the senior RJ capts would probably bid up to get more pay and a better chance for a better retirement. It just seems a bit too complicated.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: merger?

Indulge me. How long have you been an airline pilot?

A union member? [/QUOTE

Why does it matter? Surplus has awed us with his "experience" more times than I can count. On the cusp, he has been proven wrong on three seperate occasions by just me. Experience is important, but it can work against you, as it is with the senior contingent at Comair. I find it interesting that in your next post you talk about actions which would cause the lawsuit to be moot. Many think it is there already, or haven't you noticed the uproar in the Comair MEC. The rats will soon be deserting the ship in droves, and some in the know are fearing what the reprocussions from the Delta MEC might be--as in NO relationship. We will not obtain any kind of scope without their help. Without scope, we are at the mercy of the CHQs and the Mesas of the world.

Be careful who you worship, my friend. It could just be the wolf in sheeps clothing.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Dude]

I am all for guys out of work coming back and earning a living. When they do come back whether it be at mainline or DCI I don't want them taking the upgrade chance I've been waiting 4+ years for. That I am not willing to give up. If guys come back as cpts, then I'll end up being a six year fo-screw that I didn't interview at Eagle for a reason.

 

[General Lee]

Who said that would happen? We don't know what, if anything, would be worked out. It is all speculation.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wms]

A double staple is not necessary. Just seat protection for your current position until you bid out of it. Recalling furloughees to all vacancies would mean some stagnation for awhile, but the long term payoff would be worth it, and could be shortened with brand scope.

-Merge CA/ASA list
-Staple CA/ASA to bottom of DAL list
-Replace current scope with brand scope
-Recall furloughees to all vacancies
-Seat protect pilots in their current positions
-Hire all future pilots to junior positions at bottom of combined list
-Preserve time served of CA/ASA pilots with doh for pay and retirement only
-Put all aircraft with more than 70 seats on mainline

Maybe some adjustments would have to be made, but there can be a way to do this so that it's beneficial to all three pilot groups as well as the company. They would save lots of money with reduced overhead from multiple infrastructures. Even portfolio carriers have overhead which is considered when they submit bids to DCI. This can be eliminated with one integrated company. JB sees this, or they would be taking bids from contract carriers for the small jets.

As far as too much power being in the hand of one pilot group, some pretty big labor groups have been beaten by mgmt. The key is to have mgmt and labor groups that will work together for the success of the company. You know, the way it used to be here before...

 

[Treme]

WMS said, "-Replace current scope with brand scope"

And give Chautauqua, Skywest, and ACA what... about 3 years to transfer the flying back to Delta and terminate the codeshares?

 

[wil]

Great ideas!! Kill the portfolio, brand scope and get the furloughs flying. They can move back to Mainline as seniority permits and then we can work out something for us DCI guys who want to move up- I'd love to be the General's FO on an international flight!

The bottom line is to work together. Let's have a kegger at the General's home and hash out a plan!!

 

[General Lee]

Wil,

Thanks, and you and Treme could be the FO and Relief officer (or food taster) on the way to Santiago, Chile from ATL. Anyways----I have to quit dreaming. I think this would be a good idea, and of course there would be some sort of fence put up so current pilots on certain equipment couldn't get bumped. But, this is all speculation and I don't know if Dalpa is looking at it---although it might be after this large furlough debacle. We shall see if any of this ever comes to fruition-----I would vote yes to it. Let's get those furloughs back into the air!!!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[wms]

And give Chautauqua, Skywest, and ACA what... about 3 years to transfer the flying back to Delta and terminate the codeshares?

Like I said, adjustments would have to be made. ACA may be on the way out anyway. There are contracts with SKW and CHQ that have to be honored. But it could start with no new contract flying and be eliminated all together at the end of those contracts. That'll be worked out by a higher pay grade than mine. I'm just a stupid pilot.

UAL and USA have depended on portfolio operations and look where they are. And DAL will end up in the same boat if they follow their model. It's too much to manage and takes too much money to do it. Especially at a time when we have to go to the lowest bidder for water.

Business needs to be based on a business plan, and not how to leverage against labor.

 

[surplus1]

A) Other than being a Woerth euphemism for smoke and mirrors, would someone tell me what "brand scope" actually means? Since so many seem to be in favor of it, I presume that someone actually knows.

B) General, when you say "staple", what exactly do you mean? What, in your view, are the details of the procedure from the perspective of a Delta pilot?

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

If there were to be a staple, I would say that the ASA/Comair lists were to be merged date of hire, and then that list stapled to the bottom of the Delta list, with fences to protect any current pilots. That would be my definition---but obviously I am not in charge of any of this, and I don't know if any of that would ever happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

General,

By "fences" do you mean "no flush" or something else?

In case there is a question, "no flush" means that regardless of seniority, no one holding a position in a category on the effective date of the integration could be displaced from that position or category and would apply to both parties. However, all future vacancy bids would be subject to award by system seniority.

I realize you don't know if that would be acceptable to the Company and I believe that nothing involving a single list would be acceptable to them. So its all conjecture. I'm just trying to get a "feel" for what the position of D pilots might be.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Yes, this may mean absolutely NOTHING at all, but I believe that the "flush" you were talking about would be correct, and that no one would be affected or displaced as a result. That would be the only fair thing to do for the DCI pilots--not furlough them as soon as a staple would take place. No one else should lose their job. All new vaccancies would be taken by current Delta furloughs until they were back in the air, and then seniority would rule. That would be fair for everyone, I believe. I wonder if Delta would EVER let this happen? It might solve some of their problems with "right sizing" aircraft, and help get our furloughs back sooner.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[12GO]

I think if you include provisions for DCI Rights (and observe them!) address flow through and flow back, you are getting close to the right answer.

 

[FDJ2]

I think if you include provisions for DCI Rights (and observe them!) address flow through and flow back, you are getting close to the right answer.

One possible solution would be to allow DCI pilots the option to opt out of the flow/flush. IOW, if you don't want any possible ramifications of a flush, than you opt out, but you are than precluded from a flow through to any mainline equipment. You get to keep your seniority in any jet with 70 or fewer seats, with no risk of ever having a mainline pilot bump you out of it. If on the other hand, you want the opportunity to gain a mainline seniority number and flow through into mainline equipment, than you might just get bumped.

 

[surplus1]

The General and I are on the same page. (Miracles never cease).

While I do not believe this will ever happen because the Company will not agree to it, the concept must NOT include any flow up or flow back.

Either we merge or we do not. If we merge, everyone is protected in their current position/category, and no one can be displaced. Once you leave your position/category voluntarily, it's strictly seniority. There is no "flow" in either direction.

Flow throughs in any format are a waste of time. If there is anything we do not need it is the equivalent of "Eagle rights".

A merger of seniority can protect people from losing what they have at the time of the merger, but should not provide any special privileges beyond that. Otherwise you could maintain "senior" pilots on furlough while junior pilots continue to be employed. That is not right.

When a pilot chooses to bid a vacancy, after the merger, his only protection is his seniority.

In a merger/staple with no "flush", no CMR pilot would lose his current seat and could not be displaced by any "senior" furloughed pilot. However, new vacancies would be open to all pilots on the basis of seniority. You don't have to bid what you don't want. If you do bid a new vacancy, you take your chances like anybody else. That's equitable.

Initially, you may have a lot of current pilots on the D side filling new RJ vacancies, but eventually they will return to the seats they held before their furlough. CMR pilots that want seats in those airplanes that CMR does not operate will just have to wait.

We keep two airlines (I presume a DOH integration of ASA/CMR) but we have one system seniority list. No different from Delta and Song.

Such an arrangement has always been possible and acceptable to CMR pilots. Delta pilots didn't want it. If you have changed your minds, all you have to do is implement the ALPA merger policy. If you have not changed your minds, there is no need for discussion about one list.

 

[P38JLightning]

PID II?

<Such an arrangement has always been possible and acceptable to CMR pilots. Delta pilots didn't want it. If you have changed your minds, all you have to do is implement the ALPA merger policy. If you have not changed your minds, there is no need for discussion about one list.

Surplus,

I agree with you that such an arrangement has always been acceptable to most Comair pilots. But don't think for one minute that the RJDC crowd would go for something like this.

They are after a windfall for themselves at any cost to others. Need proof?

1. Look at how they attempted to extort the Delta furloughs. They went on and on about how dual seniority was the antichrist of all that is unionisim. About how this was everything that was wrong and they opposed it to the core. But then in the very next sentence said they would go for it if they "got something" in return, i.e. a HUGE equipment bidding "reward" for helping get the furloughed bottom of the list 15K jobs, or better yet, some of that worthless, harmful SCOPE.

2. They have never once came up with an acceptable proposal that did not include a HUGE, risk free (to them) windfall. Its been 3+ years since the PID. Where is their "solution"? The ONLY formal thing that has been offered by them is for the Delta pilots to FIRST commit to binding arbitration in regards to a merger of lists. A process whereby a staple would be the absolute floor, and DOH the ceiling. See number 3 below...

3. At the PID meetings in 2000 the future RJDC generals actually advised people with Delta class dates that they would be better off staying at Comair because typically in a merger you get something BETWEEN a staple and DOH. So go from Comair to Delta and lose ALL seniority because you went to a DIFFERENT COMPANY, but stay with Comair and KEEP some or all of your seniority because you are all part of the SAME COMPANY.


So before any merger policy is implimented, don't you think there should be up front protections that adress the Delta pilot's (including and especially their furlough's) legitimate concerns?

We all know we wouldn't accept anything that would cause 1000+ of our guys to hit the street, be flushed and bumped. Doesn't Delta deserve the same level of respect? Like No Comair pilot will be senior to any Delta pilot in ANY 71+ seat equipment. Sounds reasonable enough, but bring that up at the next RJDC meeting and see what happens. Bring up anything that doesn't give any TK+ seniority number or bidding rights to anyone and see what their reaction will be. This is truly what they want. Propose something counter to this at the next meeting.

Seriously, bring it up.

The RJDC seeks to secure their risk nothing, gain everything windfall by one of two methods:

Ideally:

A. Illegalize scope allowing Comair pilots to bid for ALL present and future flying, thinkiing much or all of this scope-free flying would go to us because we're cheaper than Delta pilots. This would nullify the Delta PWA and provide mainline bidding opportunities on mainline equipment ahead of TK and EVERYONE else at Delta.

More likely:

B. The threat of A. will cause so much fear among ALPA/DALPA that they will come to us and beg to integrate, and this integration would be on our terms afterall, otherwise we would just let A. happen.

This is exactly why you won't see a fair solution proposed by the RJDC, and this is one reason you won't see any implimentation of any merger policy until fair stipulations (for all sides) are proposed in advance. It no longer matters that "agree to it first and worry about the details later" is "the traditional way" mergers are handeled. It is too late for that method, it is not going to happen. If there ever is a solution that involves seniority integration/one list, it will have to first include protection for all sides BEFORE it is comitted to.

 

[Medeco]

Merger

Hey guys

I sat in on the first of several "State of the company" meetings that our President Skip Barnett will hold over the next week or so.

Among many things stated and asked, the Comair/ASA merger question came up.

His answer was a profound NO WAY, Delta would never go for it, nor in all of their opinions would it be good overall for anybody, why not, he did not address. End of discussion. Atleast as far as he is concerned.

Medeco

 

[Palerider957]

Just like that??

Wow, just like that. Skip says NO WAY.....hmmmmm, I guess I understand where he is coming, it would be a serious threat to his and the other jobs at ASA senior management.

I tell you this, if Comair comes into Atlanta with it's own management and can make it work---look out ASA management.

Skip and Drew are nice guys, but they just do what Delta tells them, if DALPA, ASA/CMR push this in negotiations--middle management will have little to say about it.

I think Skips "No way," is more like wishful thinking.